Keep Religion OUT of Public Schools!

[Josiah]

@Albion

1. Yes, what Lees proposes is both unconstituional and illegal. Public schools are not permitted support, endorse, represent or teach ANY religion or religious views - including Atheism. We all know that. I'm certain Lees knows that.

2. Lees CLAIMS that some unnamed public school is teaching Atheism - but offers ZERO substantiation for his claim. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. We all know why.

3. Lees agrees that the government cannot say what is true (doctrine) or false (heresy) but insists that's what it must do. His entire proposal is for public schools to do what he insists it cannot do.

4. Lees violates parental rights law in all 50 states by REFUSING to say exactly WHAT religious views the schools would support, represent, present/teach and which it would not - he insists the schools keep all this a big, dark secret from parents. With one exception: he insists evolution is a RELIGIOUS view (which is laughably absurd) and he demands THAT view be repudiated as heresy. But Gnosticism, Arianism, Universalism, Sabellianism, Monarchianism, Modalism, Psilanyhropism, Pelagianism, Tritheism, Marcionism, Antidicomarians, Nestorianism, all those are just hunky dory to him, perfectly okay for public schools to support, represent, teach - in classes, in prayers, in devotion.

5. Because Lees, personally, disagrees with evolution - that must go, because he disagrees with 77-82% of American Protestants on that issue. Lee's feelings and religious views MUST be totally respected by everyone else... but what the rest of us believe doesn't matter at all, not at bit, not at all; that tens of millions of American Christians disagree with Arianism for example, doesn't matter, who cares?, the schools will support it because it's a religious view (not a science one like evolution) held by some Christians who passionately believe it's totally Christian and biblical - it's just that millions of American Christians regard it as horrible heresy and are at least as offended by it as Lees seems to be about evolution. Don't matter. Only Lees matters. No one else does. Lee's religion and feelings MUST be totally respected by all public schools - what HE believes is to be supported, what he does not is to be reject cuz Lees is Lees. The Pope of Public Schools. But the rest of us? He doesn't give a rip, we don't matter, we need to shut up and docilicly submit to HIS views (which he won't disclose - except on evolution).

6. He's right about one thing (and only one on this topic): I don't want ANY religious views taught (doctrine) or condemned (heresy) in PUBLIC, government owned and operated schools. I do NOT want my Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod views forced on the children of non-LCMS parents. I have no more "right " for FORCE my religion on Lee's kids than he does on mine. Even if there was full transparency and disclosure (which Lees insists must be illegally denied to parents). I agree with the Bible. I agree with public schools. The authority and responsibility to teach religion belongs to PARENTS - the child's own PARENTS - not to Big Government, not to the King, not to the public, not to Lees.



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[Lees]

@Albion, concerning post #(80).

Yes, I have said it many times and will continue to do so.

Well, the court rulings you mention are based on the lie of 'separation of church and state'. No, the question is whether or not to have God and Christianity kept out of schools. Josiah, and you apparently, want God and Christianity out of the public schools. If the question, as you say, is what it is, then why does Josiah not leave his children in the public schools? It is what he is wanting. It is what it is. He has what he wants. Yet his wife, a teacher, wants nothing now to do with public schools. Josiah doesn't want his kid in public schools. And he goes to a Roman church school for refuge for his kid. Yet all the while proclaiming God and Christianity must not be in public schools. Oxymoronic.

Yes, God and Christianity are not permitted. And I don't fault anyone for doing whatever they need to, to protect their children from a hellish public school system. I do fault anyone who teaches this 'separation of church and state', 'God and Christianity out of public schools', and then hypocritically sends their kids to church schools, and that church not of their supposed profession. As Josiah does.

The topic of this thread is 'keep religion out of public schools'. It is not, 'does a parent have the right to send his kid to whatever school he wants'. Josiah can send his kid to a Muslim school if he wants. You can send your kid to Hindu school if you like. Josiah wants, however, to preach the lie of God and Christianity must be kept out of the schools, and THEN sends his kid to a Roman Christian school. Oxymoronic.

Yes, it is the governments choice. But people in America place the government in power, or they used to. And as I said, no one likes chaos and disorder, which is what you have in the American schools. Home schooling and church schools are the only real alternatives where to find safety for your kids. But, these alternatives don't allow you to promote God and Christianity out of the public schools. God and Christianity out of schools has caused this problem.

Christians need to step up to the plate. America is based upon Christianity. Christianity must be represented in it's government and schools. To fail to do so, results in what we now have. Quit being afraid to say what must be said.

Leers

 

[Albion]

Well, the court rulings you mention are based on the lie of 'separation of church and state'.

So how does that change the decision-making dilemma of a parent with a school-age child?

No, the question is whether or not to have God and Christianity kept out of schools. Josiah, and you apparently, want God and Christianity out of the public schools.

I don't, but I also know that it's a moot point, AND he has a valid point about which religion would be taught if the current ban were reversed.

If the question, as you say, is what it is, then why does Josiah not leave his children in the public schools?

I think he explained that to do so would be worse than taking the alternative. He'd rather have the child taught the basics of Christianity and then have the child's father correct any distinctively Roman Catholic heresies, for instance Transubstantiation,, the Papacy, and Purgatory.

Naturally, if the situation were faced by a Protestant of a much different religious kind, this might not be feasible. You, however, were asking about and commenting on Josiah's own situation.

Yes, God and Christianity are not permitted. And I don't fault anyone for doing whatever they need to, to protect their children from a hellish public school system. I do fault anyone who teaches this 'separation of church and state', 'God and Christianity out of public schools', and then hypocritically sends their kids to church schools, and that church not of their supposed profession. As Josiah does.

But the public schools ARE what you describe. Why would you think he should send his child into that situation?? The fact is that it would be a better thing if the public schools were not as they are at present, but there's no getting around the fact that they are what they are. Even you agree to this, yet you want him to choose that "hellish" experience for his child!!??

The topic of this thread is 'keep religion out of public schools'. It is not, 'does a parent have the right to send his kid to whatever school he wants'.

I think we all understand that.

Josiah can send his kid to a Muslim school if he wants. You can send your kid to Hindu school if you like. Josiah wants, however, to preach the lie of God and Christianity must be kept out of the schools, and THEN sends his kid to a Roman Christian school. Oxymoronic.

What's illogical IMO is sending one's child to an inferior school just in order to prove a dubious point about the schools being capable--if they were allowed, which at present they are not allowed--to teach religion.

If you have a better argument, you need to start by addressing the matter of how the concept of a Separation of Church and State, no matter what any parent thinks of it or where it came from, changes the situation as it is right now, public vs religious schools.

Yes, it is the governments choice. But people in America place the government in power, or they used to. And as I said, no one likes chaos and disorder, which is what you have in the American schools. Home schooling and church schools are the only real alternatives where to find safety for your kids. But, these alternatives don't allow you to promote God and Christianity out of the public schools. God and Christianity out of schools has caused this problem.

If God and Christianity being out of the schools is what has caused this problem, how does that fact--and us knowing it--1) fix the problem, and 2) get that accomplished prior to Josiah's child's graduation from secondary school?

 

[Lees]

@Albion, concerning post #(83)

Why shouldn't it change a Christians decision making who have children?

Well, it's not a moot unless you have already surrendered. Have you? I have said many times already, the schools should represent Christianity. The churches haggle over their particular doctrine. So, no. Josiah doesn't have a valid point.

Don't start telling me what you 'think' Josiah means. If you have something to offer, tell me what you mean. If you don't have anything to offer except what you think Josiah means...butt out. Normally called hearsay. Point being, you say it is what it is. OK. If it is what it is, and God and Christianity are already taken out of schools, why the need to remove you kid to a church school to teach them 'it isn't what it is'? Oxymoronic.

Yes, I was commenting about Josiah's situation because I was/am in disagreement with Josiah. If you disagree with me, fine. I am willing to argue with you. But don't begin with what you 'think' Josiah means. Again, hearsay. It just fogs the discussion. Is that what you want to do? Create a fog for Josiah? Run resistance for your bud? How typical.

Yes, the public schools are what I describe. Hellish. I have already said, I don't blame anyone for doing whatever they can to protect their children in schools. I blame Josiah for preaching the 'God and Christianity out of schools' lie, yet all the while sending his kids to Roman church schools. Again, oxymoronic. And cowardice.

If you understood the topic of this discussion you wouldn't have said what you just did.

First of all, the inferior schools you speak of, public schools, are inferior because God and Christianity were taken out, based on 'separation of church and state'. The 'concept', as you put it, of 'separation of church and state' is not in the Constitution. The first amendment says nothing about 'separation of church and state'. Congress shall not establish any one national religion. Catholic vs. Protestant vs. Muslim etc. etc. But that doesn't mean that America wasn't founded on the Christian faith and is to represent the Christian faith. It gives freedom for various Christian denominations to worship. And freedom for other faiths. But the government and schools should represent only the faith that they were built on. Christianity.

You are not paying attention to the discussion. You want just the 'immediate' comparison of church vs public schools to be the argument. And that is not the argument. The topic is God and Christianity should be kept out of public schools. In other words, church schools and home schools are better and should be the option for Christians. But they are only better because they include God and Christianity in their teaching.

Well, let me tell you what doesn't solve the problem...what adds to the problem. That is Josiah's preaching of God and Christianity kept out of public schools. With Christians believing and preaching that, there is no solution.

Lees

 

[Albion]

Why shouldn't it change a Christians decision making who have children?

Because the rightness or wrongness of the current situation, based upon court rulings, remains what it is no matter what any of us or any parent of a school child thinks of it.

Well, it's not a moot unless you have already surrendered.

I just explained why it's a moot point. Nothing the parent can do is capable of making the public school teach the religion of the parent's child.

OK. If it is what it is, and God and Christianity are already taken out of schools, why the need to remove you kid to a church school to teach them 'it isn't what it is'?

Why should a parent prefer a private school over a public school whose educational product you yourself described as "hellish?" What a silly question.

Yes, the public schools are what I describe. Hellish.

And yet you still think the parent ought to send his child there rather than to a private or parochial school that is better. Amazing.

I have already said, I don't blame anyone for doing whatever they can to protect their children in schools.

You did so only a few sentences ago. See the above for a refresher.

First of all, the inferior schools you speak of, public schools, are inferior because God and Christianity were taken out, based on 'separation of church and state'.

That's irrelevant to the situation faced by the parent who needs to make a decision about which school his child should attend. You've been advised of this before.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, and you apparently, want God and Christianity out of the public schools.

@Lees


Religion is already kept out of public schools. Including the religion of atheism. It's the law.

God gave the responsibility and authority to teach religion to children to their PARENTS. Not government, not the king, not the public, not you, not me. The child's parents. I agree with the Bible. So do public schools. So does the law

Josiah wants God and Christianity kept out of the schools

Yes. Kept out.

I want to keep religious instruction out of the schools, as is now the law. I agree with the Bible that this responsibility and authority is with the child's PARENTS - not you, not government, not the public. Public schools, the government and the law agree with me. You want to insert certain religious views - you just refuse to say which.

Home schooling and church schools are the only real alternatives

Correct. Just as the Bible says. The child's PARENTS are the ones who have this authority, duty and responsibility. Not Big Government. Not the 400,000,000 American public (whatever they come up with). Not you.

I do NOT want Big Government for force feed YOUR child the views of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, I do NOT want public schools to force your child to learn and "support" MY faith. I don't want to force public schools to teach YOUR child the views of my branch of Lutheranism. You, however, want my child force feed YOUR views of what is right (doctrine) and wrong (heresy) - you just refuse to say what views will be supported and which repudiated. Rude. Unbiblical. Illegal and unconstitutional. Totally unworkable. And you will have massive chaos if you do that.

Christians need to step up to the plate.

Good! We finally agree on SOMETHING!

Parents need to step up and teach their kids - DO exactly what the Bible tells them to do!!!! Don't ask Big Government to do it for them and present some unknown and very, very likely horribly heretical stuff - contrary to their own faith in the process. It's not the State's job, it's parent's job. The State doesn't NEED to teach religion if parents stepped up and did EXACTLY what God tells them to do.

The problem is NOT with Government agreeing with the Bible and affirming that it is not its job to teach my son religion, the problem is NOT with it agreeing with Scripture on this. The problem is with PARENTS not doing what the Bible tells them to do. You need to be preaching to Christian parents, not the secular State.



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[Lees]

@Albion, concerning your post #(85)

Ok. You have surrendered. Enjoy the stay.

Lees

 

[Lees]

@Josiah concerning your post #(86)

Why are you such a coward? Your bud Albion runs interference for you and you then respond to me based on what I say to Albion. All the while ignoring my post to you #(79).

No, no...don't respond now to (79) and then say you just now got to it. Your deception runs deep. Am I surprised...no. Why should I be? You deceptively claim Lutheran and are willing to force Catholicism upon your kid. You deceptively claim you want God out of schools yet move your kid to a church school. You are a walking Oxymoron.

The only thing I have to say about your post #(86) is your lie at the end where you say we agree. We do not agree, which you know. But yet you cherry pick and say 'we agree'.

The topic of this, your thread, is based upon a lie. Thus you and Albion must plot and deceive and lie to support it.

Lees