Genealogy explanation debunked

Andrew

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William Lane Craig on the Septuagint Vs. Masoretic genealogy (response video by NathanH83)

The first four centuries have witness testimony for each that the Masoretic has a different genealogy than the original Hebrew.

 

Josiah

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Frankly, I think much of the material in the pre-history biblical material (Genesis 1-11) is problematic.....

Frankly, I am at a bit of a loss to know why it matters if the lifetimes in the Mesoretic or LXX texts are correct in a mathematical sense. How does it impact Law and Gospel if someone lived 150 years or 100 years?

No one knows what Hebrew texts the LXX used in order to translate into Greek. All we have is THEIR translation. And yes, generally we know the meaning of the GREEK words they used, but we have no clue what the Hebrew words were... and may be more or less aware now as to what those Hebrew words meant in say 1400 BC.

Interesting (to me) to see how SOME Protestants go on and on about how infallible, how smart, how authoritative some Church Fathers are.... the very same ones they claim are WRONG about the Eucharist, about Baptism, about Mary, about pretty much everything.

Meanwhile, we have massive numbers of Christians essentially denying that Jesus is the Savior, insisting that each person is the infallible/unaccountable interpreter of Scripture, etc. - and none of this seems to concern them a bit. All kinds of weird new dogmas are being invented out of thin air - and the church divided by them - and they don't give a rip (because they likely are doing that) But did some dude no one has heard of .... does he have a child when he was 135 years old or 35 years old? THAT is THE most important issue in all Christianity, THE issue they think is the great danger, the big deal. And I think of some verse about being divided by speculations and numbers and days....

I am reminded that we all wear glasses..... we all bring our "worldview" and assumptions and paradigms with us. And today, that means a VERY physical, materialistic, scientific mindset. We assume numbers are just math without realizing that until recently, numbers were far more likely to have a non-math meaning, for example. People look at those Scriptures that speak of the FOUR corners of the Earth and argue there can't be THREE or FIVE and these must be 90 degrees (heresy to say 60 degrees!) and thus the Earth must be flat..... when individuals IMPOSE their mindset on others, absurdities can result.




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Andrew

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Frankly, I think much of the material in the pre-history biblical material (Genesis 1-11) is problematic.....

Frankly, I am at a bit of a loss to know why it matters if the lifetimes in the Mesoretic or LXX texts are correct in a mathematical sense. How does it impact Law and Gospel if someone lived 150 years or 100 years?

No one knows what Hebrew texts the LXX used in order to translate into Greek. All we have is THEIR translation. And yes, generally we know the meaning of the GREEK words they used, but we have no clue what the Hebrew words were... and may be more or less aware now as to what those Hebrew words meant in say 1400 BC.

Interesting (to me) to see how SOME Protestants go on and on about how infallible, how smart, how authoritative some Church Fathers are.... the very same ones they claim are WRONG about the Eucharist, about Baptism, about Mary, about pretty much everything.

Meanwhile, we have massive numbers of Christians essentially denying that Jesus is the Savior, insisting that each person is the infallible/unaccountable interpreter of Scripture, etc. - and none of this seems to concern them a bit. All kinds of weird new dogmas are being invented out of thin air - and the church divided by them - and they don't give a rip (because they likely are doing that) But did some dude no one has heard of .... does he have a child when he was 135 years old or 35 years old? THAT is THE most important issue in all Christianity, THE issue they think is the great danger, the big deal. And I think of some verse about being divided by speculations and numbers and days....

I am reminded that we all wear glasses..... we all bring our "worldview" and assumptions and paradigms with us. And today, that means a VERY physical, materialistic, scientific mindset. We assume numbers are just math without realizing that until recently, numbers were far more likely to have a non-math meaning, for example. People look at those Scriptures that speak of the FOUR corners of the Earth and argue there can't be THREE or FIVE and these must be 90 degrees (heresy to say 60 degrees!) and thus the Earth must be flat..... when individuals IMPOSE their mindset on others, absurdities can result.




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Josiah, did these church Fathers get anything right? What about the Trinity?
Answer: Yes!
So by implying that it's rubbish to read or study the early church father writings we can all rest assured that Martin Luther finally got it right and just in the knick of time for our modern time right?
Answer: Wrong!
God Sovereign prepared the Greek speaking world with the infallible Old Covenant word of God via a common tongue translation just in the knick of time of Christ's first coming.
I know undoubtedly that we both agree that whether it be 2020 or 33 AD that every Christian up to this present day has indeed received the Saving Gospel Message regardless.. so lets not condemn the first Christians as so ignorant especially since they entrusted in the post apostle bishops and other local and non local missionaries in the first few centuries.
No offense but you almost sound like a Calvinist in that you seem to identify with the theology perspective that the Elect only became self aware during or after the Reformation and was revealed through a special figure or two.
Were the ante Nicene Church elders Roman Catholic?
I treat their words no differently than I would the words of any common day Christian or even Martin Luther for that matter..
So why do these early Christians fall flat?

Baby steps, let us discuss your main point in this matter that we should turn a deaf ear to any and all early Church father figures due to post ante Nicene church dogmas that got caught up in the web of man made tradition.

Blessings
 
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Josiah

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Josiah, did these church Fathers get anything right? What about the Trinity?
Answer: Yes!

I agree. What I question is how some "Evangelicals" use some isolated snippet from 1 or 2 ECF as proof, as authoritative/infallible, the norma normans. While at the same time, so passionately condemning and ridiculing Tradition, human opinion, and ANYTHING "Catholic." Seems pretty hypocritical, contradictory and silly to me.



God Sovereign prepared the Greek speaking world with the infallible Old Covenant word of God via a common tongue translation just in the knick of time of Christ's first coming.

Enormous assumptions there, my friend. True, most Jews began to speak Greek. And yes, this created a market for Greek translations. And later, as Christianity arose, many Christians read Latin and so a market for Latin translations arose , does that make the Latin Vulgate authoriative, infallible, the norma normans just because smart people filled a market? The same was true when the printing press was invented and literacy rose dramatically - this created a market for Biblical tomes in the language of the people (few of whom could read Latin). So what? Does that make Luther's Translation authoritative? The Geneva Bible? I think you are making some remarkable assumptions and leaps. My recommendations is to think that through.



let us discuss your main point in this matter that we should turn a deaf ear to any and all early Church father

If it's my "main point" then you can (often) quote me stating "we must turn a deaf ear to any and all Early Church Fathers." Let's start there.

Then perhaps you can tell me exactly what dogmas of the Church are threatened by whether someone had a child when he was 130 or 30. And how this proves every Bible of Christians and Jews is wrong - missing dogmas essential to salvation and/or teaching heresies.



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Andrew

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I agree. What I question is how some "Evangelicals" use some isolated snippet from 1 or 2 ECF as proof, as authoritative/infallible, the norma normans. While at the same time, so passionately condemning and ridiculing Tradition, human opinion, and ANYTHING "Catholic." Seems pretty hypocritical, contradictory and silly to me.






Enormous assumptions there, my friend. True, most Jews began to speak Greek. And yes, this created a market for Greek translations. And later, as Christianity arose, many Christians read Latin and so a market for Latin translations arose , does that make the Latin Vulgate authoriative, infallible, the norma normans just because smart people filled a market? The same was true when the printing press was invented and literacy rose dramatically - this created a market for Biblical tomes in the language of the people (few of whom could read Latin). So what? Does that make Luther's Translation authoritative? The Geneva Bible? I think you are making some remarkable assumptions and leaps. My recommendations is to think that through.






If it's my "main point" then you can (often) quote me stating "we must turn a deaf ear to any and all Early Church Fathers." Let's start there.

Then perhaps you can tell me exactly what dogmas of the Church are threatened by whether someone had a child when he was 130 or 30. And how this proves every Bible of Christians and Jews is wrong - missing dogmas essential to salvation and/or teaching heresies.



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I never said you said that.. I said you implied that.

You ask what having a 650 year difference in genealogies has to do with salvation?
Although it doesn't effect your salvation it is a huge stumbling block for Jews because with the Masoretic they argue that Jesus could not possibly be the messiah because Shem is "obviously" Melchezedic who passed the high priesthood over to Abraham thus since he has a birth and death they discredit the description of Melchezedic in the New Testament (having NO birth nor death) THUS again Jesus can NOT be the New High priest since Shem is long dead..
Abraham "passed it down to Levi" and because Jesus is from the tribe of Judah they discredit him all together...
That's why it's important

Also it's important to remove any wiggle room for Atheists who have done the math and found it impossible for a population to grow from 8 people to enough people to build the tower of Babel in just 100 years, with the Septuagint you would have more than enough people to build the tower :)
That's why it's important

Btw you do know that the OT you have is a mixture of the LXX and the Masoretic don't you??

If you really have doubt about the authenticity of the LXX then I suggest you open your OT and replace the word "Virgin" with the word "Young maiden".. seriously
 

Josiah

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Andrew

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... and I clearly noted I did not.


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Okay then so you don't have a problem when they started defending the older Septuagint over the newer hebrew text in the 2nd century?
You know the Hebrew they had was brand new because the original was already lost right?
And yet we are expected to blindly accept the new hebrew over the greek translations of the original Hebrew text?
 
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