USA Dems - Looks like Biden or Sanders?

tango

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Okay. First, it should be noted that a number of members openly professing Socialism is a significant turn for the Democratic Party and would be for either of the big two parties. Until just recently, any suggestion of a Democrat being a Socialist was resisted with as much determination as if the accuser had said the candidate or officeholder was a Nazi. No more. The change is real and it has been reported by many observers that the Party's leadership is afraid of doing much of anything in public to resist the trend.

Not even Pelosi would do so much as to verbally reject the extremism of those Congresswomen through a simple Congressional resolution. Then too, a majority of the 17 or so candidates who were debating only weeks ago agreed with the Socialist policies espoused by Bernie and "The Squad," even while those candidates were posing as "Moderates." In sum, the evidence is there, and this development within the Democratic Party cannot be reduced to something as misleading as counting noses ("In fairness 'The Squad' is four people").

Second, this is why the Party's leadership has united behind the likes of Joe Biden. It's not because he's so compelling as a candidate; it's because that appears to be the only way to stop Sanders, given that the same Party strategists are afraid to just speak out against the Socialist inroads that have already been made by their extremists.
I'm still not sure what conclusions can safely be drawn. Let's face it, politician's promises aren't known for being kept on a regular basis and if any group of people has a reputation for telling everyone what they want to hear it's politicians. It's not always easy to know whether the party as a whole is moving to the far left or whether it's just the most vocal social media users. The trouble with the vocal social media users is that upsetting them is like dealing with a pack of howler monkeys - you end up dealing with a huge amount of noise and much throwing of feces with little discrimination or concern as to who gets hit. Throw in the possibility for manufactured outrage - Nancy Pelosi might be female but isn't a "woman of color", and the concept of identity politics never seems short of a reason why you rejecting me is because you're a bigot rather than because I'm saying something stupid. I guess the question is whether whatever brand of socialism is being pushed has truly made huge inroads into the Democrat party to the extent that moderates are in genuine danger of being pushed out if they speak up, or whether the moderates just don't want to deal with endless howling on social media. People might be notionally afraid to speak out but uniting behind Biden rather than Sanders is a far more effective form of speaking out against what Sanders stands for.

Joe Biden may be nothing more than the best chance to stop Bernie Sanders but given his known issues I'd have thought that other more moderate candidates would have stood at least a reasonable chance. Even Bloomberg, distasteful as he may be to the left for trying to buy his way in (and for his crimes of being an old white male billionaire), seems to tick at least some of the boxes beloved by the left and clearly has the resources to resist anything The Squad can muster. It is rather curious that the party that endlessly whines about diversity has managed to shake out the gay and female candidates and ended up with two old white men.

It's hard to know whether Biden or Sanders could realistically beat Trump. Sanders clearly has appeal among the hard left but misses the mark among most sections of the electorate and Biden doesn't give the impression of being particularly well connected, as if his brain and mouth disagree on what he wants to say. I read somewhere that he has a stutter which may explain some of the issue but I'm not sure that fully covers everything. From what I've read it seems the main focus for the left is to unite behind anyone who can beat Trump, and anyone who can be described as "hard left" is unlikely to have a broad enough appeal to do that.
 

tango

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Another reason why the eventual nominee matters....

In the Democrat Party, the presidential NOMINEE becomes the head of the party and can change EVERYTHING - whether such wins the general election or not. Right now, the DNC is filled entirely with appointees of Hillery Clinton (several are carry-overs from Obama and Bill Clinton) and by CURRENT standards, are regarded as "moderates" (they weren't considered so when they were picked but the Democrat Party is moving left FAST). Thing is, if Sanders gets the nomination, all those will be fired and replaced by radicals - socialists and communists. But it is expected that Biden will largely leave well enough alone.

So the current leadership is looking out for their jobs and power..... and FEARING (for good reason) what will happen to the party if Sanders gets the nomination.
If Sanders were to get the nomination do you think the Democrat party would lurch so far to the left they would become all but unelectable, or do you think there is enough support across the nation for policies from further left that the entire nation might end up dragged along?
 

Albion

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I'm still not sure what conclusions can safely be drawn. Let's face it, politician's promises aren't known for being kept on a regular basis and if any group of people has a reputation for telling everyone what they want to hear it's politicians. It's not always easy to know whether the party as a whole is moving to the far left or whether it's just the most vocal social media users.
No, it's the Party. What it stood for only 20 or 25 years ago is barely tolerated anymore by today's Party regulars. In fact, Sanders is currently deriding Biden for having held such views as fiscal responsibility and allowing people to take out health insurance with private companies.
 

Josiah

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If Sanders were to get the nomination do you think the Democrat party would lurch so far to the left they would become all but unelectable, or do you think there is enough support across the nation for policies from further left that the entire nation might end up dragged along?
If Sanders gets the nomination, it seems likely he will fire all the party leadership (appointed by his opponent 4 years ago, Mrs. Clinton) and put in place radical leftists like himself. It's one of the huge "perks" of getting the nomination of your party, you become the head. I sue,spect this is partly the reason why the leadership doesn't want Sanders.... if Biden gets the nod, they keep their jobs and power. Perhaps neither will defeat Trump but the nominee leads, whether they win or loose the general election.

Would this "sway" the typical registered Democrat? Who is to say.... but it will impact polices and practices of the party and will surely have a "drip down" effect.



.
 

tango

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No, it's the Party. What it stood for only 20 or 25 years ago is barely tolerated anymore by today's Party regulars. In fact, Sanders is currently deriding Biden for having held such views as fiscal responsibility and allowing people to take out health insurance with private companies.
Sanders deriding Biden doesn't necessarily indicate that the party as a whole shares his views. Certainly there's a swell of support for him, although I wouldn't like to guess how much of that is because people specifically support what he stands for and how much of it is about people aware the system isn't working and wanting someone willing to "kick the applecart over".

I have to wonder whether the surge in Biden's popularity is indicative that the party as a whole doesn't want what Sanders is offering, or whether it's the party establishment closing ranks against the Democrat's equivalent of Trump.
 

tango

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If Sanders gets the nomination, it seems likely he will fire all the party leadership (appointed by his opponent 4 years ago, Mrs. Clinton) and put in place radical leftists like himself. It's one of the huge "perks" of getting the nomination of your party, you become the head. I sue,spect this is partly the reason why the leadership doesn't want Sanders.... if Biden gets the nod, they keep their jobs and power. Perhaps neither will defeat Trump but the nominee leads, whether they win or loose the general election.

Would this "sway" the typical registered Democrat? Who is to say.... but it will impact polices and practices of the party and will surely have a "drip down" effect.
That makes sense, if the leadership works to keep their own power even if it means losing the election.

In many ways my concern is that in a two-party system you really want both parties to be able to hold the other to account. If one becomes unelectable it gives the other much more scope to run out of control. You've described the way California is more or less a single-party state these days, it would be a shame if the nation went the same way.
 

Albion

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Sanders deriding Biden doesn't necessarily indicate that the party as a whole shares his views.
That's true. However, 20 or so years ago those particular attacks would never have been thrown at Biden because they would have had absolutely no impact. And it would have been so for this reason--those positions being criticized would have been seen by almost all Democratic voters as good things, not something to be ashamed of or apologized for.

Certainly there's a swell of support for him, although I wouldn't like to guess how much of that is because people specifically support what he stands for and how much of it is about people aware the system isn't working and wanting someone willing to "kick the applecart over".
That still misses the point IMO. Sanders isn't just anti-establishment or someone kicking the applecart over. He's openly a Socialist! Yes, that can be seen as wanting to kick a certain applecart over, but it's not as though every alternative to the existing system is going to be received with equal sympathy by the voters.

I have to wonder whether the surge in Biden's popularity is indicative that the party as a whole doesn't want what Sanders is offering, or whether it's the party establishment closing ranks against the Democrat's equivalent of Trump.
Probably both. And if that is so, it means that he hasn't suddenly reinvented himself as a more credible, more exciting, candidate. It just means that he's all that's left.
 
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Albion

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You've described the way California is more or less a single-party state these days, it would be a shame if the nation went the same way.
Indeed, but that party is working on it, state by state, all across the nation and from a number of different electoral angles, all of them representing ways to make the Democratic Party almost permanently entrenched in power. And hardly anyone seems to have noticed.
 

tango

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That's true. However, 20 or so years ago those particular attacks would never have been thrown at Biden because they would have had absolutely no impact. And it would have been so for this reason--those positions being criticized would have been seen by almost all Democratic voters as good things, not something to be ashamed of or apologized for.
Although it's not a position I can support myself, I do find it easy to see why people (especially young people) see more positives in left-wing policies. They are less likely to have experienced the dark side to the warm fuzzy concept of everybody sharing and therefore perhaps more susceptible to the notion that things failed because they weren't done properly rather than because the ideology is inherently flawed. It's obviously easier to support the idea of sharing when it's about other people sharing what they have with you, than when it's about you sharing what you have with others. They are also dealing with the consequences of incredibly loose monetary policy, growing up in a world where wages stagnate but costs of everything from housing to education to healthcare have not. Looking at such a world I find it easy to understand why people might think "if this is capitalism, socialism can't be any worse", especially if they haven't had chance to see just how bad socialism can get.

That still misses the point IMO. Sanders isn't just anti-establishment or someone kicking the applecart over. He's openly a Socialist! Yes, that can be seen as wanting to kick a certain applecart over, but it's not as though every alternative to the existing system is going to be received with equal sympathy by the voters.
Being openly socialist could just be a clear demonstration that "one of these is not like the others". Since his appeal seems to be primarily with younger voters - from what I can tell he has little appeal among women voters or non-white voters - his appeal may be little more than the promise of radical change. If his appeal is little more than "anything is better than this" maybe he is little more than a radical change in whatever direction it takes. I read an article this morning about a group of young democratic socialists and their notion that they are more about long term change than worrying about whether Sanders goes anywhere in 2020. Their view is that if he crashes and burns completely their movement is still growing and they'll just come back in 2024, 2028, 2032 etc.

Probably both. And if that is so, it means that he hasn't suddenly reinvented himself as a more credible, more exciting, candidate. It just means that he's all that's left.
If he is the only remaining option that would certainly explain some things. I must admit I found it curious to see just how Buttegieg, Klobuchar and Warren dropped out so close together. That may be about some aspect of the selection process I'm not familiar with but from what I was reading at least Buttegieg and Klobuchar were half-way decent moderate candidates. One right-leaning web site I read had an article suggesting Klobuchar was the Democrats' strongest candidate, based essentially on Sanders being too far left, Warren being not-quite-this-and-not-quite-that, Biden being too disconnected from reality and Buttegieg not having the right experience for the top job.

It will be interesting to see what November brings.
 

hedrick

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The party as a whole MAY be more moderate than the media might suggest, but that refers only to people who generally vote Democratic. The leadership is completely gone to extremism a la Bernie Sanders and "The Squad." No moderate has any influence in the Party now, not even somewhat moderate activists and commentators from the Bill Clinton era. And, after all is said and done, it is the leadership of the Party that defines the Party's strategy, policies, platform, and so on.
That's absurd. Leadership are desperate to find an alternative to Sanders without giving the impression that the party is being unfair to him.
 

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That's absurd.
That's okay, Hedrick. Not everyone 'gets it.'

And some do 'get it' but intend to cover for the shortcomings of the party they favor.

I'm not taking sides about which one of those applies in this case.
 

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tango

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Lämmchen

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Which means that they are more qualified to run a country due to having plenty of life experience.
The older people CAN be more qualified or they're so stuck in the past of bad ways that they are no longer relevant. Plus there is the rumor that Biden has dimentia and that would not be a good thing for the US to have as a Presidential candidate.
 

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The older people CAN be more qualified or they're so stuck in the past of bad ways that they are no longer relevant. Plus there is the rumor that Biden has dimentia and that would not be a good thing for the US to have as a Presidential candidate.
If it was as simple as older=better there are a few at my local old folks' home who are clearly better qualified than any of the candidates on either side.

Although, looking at the candidates......
 

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The older people CAN be more qualified or they're so stuck in the past of bad ways that they are no longer relevant. Plus there is the rumor that Biden has dimentia and that would not be a good thing for the US to have as a Presidential candidate.

Now that those over 65 are to be self-isolating and not leave the house, it should be interesting to see how Biden and Sanders conduct their campaigns. Trump too, for that matter. They are ALL way over 65.

And don't let that test mislead you. It is entirely unknown how accurate the test is, we don't know if it's 90% accurate or 10% accurate - what little testing has been done on that is totally inconclusive. But in any case, a negative result BY NO MEANS means one doesn't have the disease. So, these OLD (very old!) men - who insist we follow the guidelines which includes they not leave the house - do the opposite of what they are telling everyone ELSE to do, then they just expose themselves as hypocrites... they want US to keep each other safe but they just exempt themselves cuz they are above their own admonitions, wanting a job is just more important than people's health.




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