Catalonia Declares Independence from Spain

Confessional Lutheran

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Catalonia declared independence from Spain on Friday and the Spanish government isn't having it. The Spanish PM, Mariano Rajoy, has fired Carles Puigdemont, Catalonia's president and has effectively disbanded the formerly semi- autonomous region's government. The international response has been overwhelmingly on the side of Spain in this quarrel, but pro- independence Catalans have been keeping their spirits up, while vowing to " peacefully resist" the measures that Spain has taken to reign in their province. This might be a portent of things to come, as other forces of devolution are at work in Europe and are monitoring these events with interest. It might end in a bloody civil war, or Spain might just crack down on the dissidents and return Catalonia to the status quo. Interesting times ahead, regardless. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.5443962e87f4
 

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Catalonia declared independence from Spain on Friday and the Spanish government isn't having it. The Spanish PM, Mariano Rajoy, has fired Carles Puigdemont, Catalonia's president and has effectively disbanded the formerly semi- autonomous region's government. The international response has been overwhelmingly on the side of Spain in this quarrel, but pro- independence Catalans have been keeping their spirits up, while vowing to " peacefully resist" the measures that Spain has taken to reign in their province. This might be a portent of things to come, as other forces of devolution are at work in Europe and are monitoring these events with interest. It might end in a bloody civil war, or Spain might just crack down on the dissidents and return Catalonia to the status quo. Interesting times ahead, regardless. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.5443962e87f4
I haven't followed this too closely, but it seems that the capitalists are tired of feeding the socialists. Perhaps a dialogue can happen to address the fact that Catalans are being over taxed to support an incompetent Spanish government.
 

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I haven't followed this too closely, but it seems that the capitalists are tired of feeding the socialists. Perhaps a dialogue can happen to address the fact that Catalans are being over taxed to support an incompetent Spanish government.

That might be a good idea, but I'm not entirely sure that the government in Madrid cares too much about dialogue at this point: https://www.telesurtv.net/english/n...logue-Opts-for-Article-155-20171025-0005.html. It looks like Madrid's doing a bunch of saber rattling and one wonders whether or not Spain requires the Catalan province to survive as a nation. If so, that might give the folks in Barcelona a bargaining chip.
 

MoreCoffee

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Three cheers for Catalonia. It's a pity that Madrid will probably try to make them stay as a part of Spain, possibly even by force.

PS: Catalonia is socialist. Far more so than some other parts of Spain. The declaration of independence has nothing whatever to do with capitalism vs socialism - seeing it that way is seeing things through the chartreuse tinted glasses of current USA politics.
 

Josiah

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.


I've been a tourist in Spain a couple of times (a very good friend of mine lives there). I've been to Catalonia. I've been to Europe several times.

I think something Americans MAY not fully appreciate is that those countries there that we're so familiar with are actually mixtures of very old and quite distinctive cultures - in which people take great pride. It's really true in most of Europe. Some of these countries we now know are not very old and are the result of some king marrying some queen - and not because of any "marriage" of culture or language. Spain today is a mixture of several such cultures - each with distinctive languages, foods, etc. and with considerable pride in such. I think we're seeing a great revival in such all over Europe - and it's beginning to overwhelm the POLITICAL stuff that held it together as one country. The dissolving of the Soviet Union and of Yugoslovia and Czekoslovakia may have been renewed vision of this. Witness the narrow vote of Scotland awhile back. And of course, with the EU and the Euro, with the decline in military treats, there's less reason to be united in nation states such as Spain.

I have no idea where this will go..... it might be the wave of the 21st century, we may see several nation/states built up since the middle ages all come unraveled and the rise of many new countries based on old cultures. Or this could be a passing thing and what seemed to be the tread before this - toward one Europe - come about. And maybe even some combo of the two. Hold on to your hats.

I think the USA is simply too young for anything like this (although witness our biggest crisis - about 100 years after our founding!). But as a southern Californian, I've been to Texas.... and folks, it's different there! It's just a different culture! I like the whole Texas thing..... it's a good culture.... but very different than it is on the southern, urban coast of The People's Republic of California. I've been to rural New England.... and it's different there - a bit of a different culture. But these a faint and slight compared to what often exists within countries in Europe. In spite of now most speak English.... all use their credit cards for money (let the banks work out the technicalities!) and wear jeans and Nike's. Under those SEEMING similarities.... there are deep, old, treasured differences. And people seeing there's nothing significant keeping them from once again being their own independent country (except the rest of that country which may feel rather like many in the USA did in 1861).
 

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Three cheers for Catalonia. It's a pity that Madrid will probably try to make them stay as a part of Spain, possibly even by force.

PS: Catalonia is socialist. Far more so than some other parts of Spain. The declaration of independence has nothing whatever to do with capitalism vs socialism - seeing it that way is seeing things through the chartreuse tinted glasses of current USA politics.

Amazing. We cannot keep anti-Americanism out of even the threads that deal with SPANISH politics. :sigh:
 

psalms 91

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Amazing. We cannot keep anti-Americanism out of even the threads that deal with SPANISH politics. :sigh:
Yeah, there a re a couple of posters here that add their own anti american slant
 

MoreCoffee

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I haven't followed this too closely, but it seems that the capitalists are tired of feeding the socialists.

Three cheers for Catalonia. It's a pity that Madrid will probably try to make them stay as a part of Spain, possibly even by force.

PS: Catalonia is socialist. Far more so than some other parts of Spain. The declaration of independence has nothing whatever to do with capitalism vs socialism - seeing it that way is seeing things through the chartreuse tinted glasses of current USA politics.
 

MennoSota

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Three cheers for Catalonia. It's a pity that Madrid will probably try to make them stay as a part of Spain, possibly even by force.

PS: Catalonia is socialist. Far more so than some other parts of Spain. The declaration of independence has nothing whatever to do with capitalism vs socialism - seeing it that way is seeing things through the chartreuse tinted glasses of current USA politics.
So the socialists are complaining about being over taxed and supporting dead beats?! That's hilarious. [emoji23]
 

MoreCoffee

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So the socialists are complaining about being over taxed and supporting dead beats?! That's hilarious. [emoji23]

No, many socialists and many capitalists in Catalonia want independence. It is not about socialism. Socialism has nothing to do with it. It is a cultural and linguistic movement for independence from Spanish speaking "Spain".
 

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MoreCoffee

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Confessional Lutheran

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Yeah, like I said, any means even to the point of force. It's sad really to see how bully tactics still work in nations.

The sad thing is that the EU won't do anything about it other than reiterate its support for Spain.
 

MoreCoffee

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The sad thing is that the EU won't do anything about it other than reiterate its support for Spain.

Well, that may be because Spain is a member state and Catalonia is not. The EU is going to face this sort of problem in a few places. Spain, possibly Italy, maybe France too. The UK still has to face Scotland having another referendum. Things would be easier if it was the United Europe with regions having self government.
 

Josiah

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It will be interesting to see how the world reacts to this, if countries will recognize Catalonia as an independent country or not. It may well be that if the world simply ignores all this, denies its independence, the whole thing will just fizzle without Spain needing to do much.



- Josiah


PS (not to hijack): The uber-liberal socialist/communists that are so powerful in The People's Republic of California are working again to declare California an independent country since they hate the USA and its Constitution and especially the federal government which they feel are nazis and capitolistic and pro-West. http://www.latimes.com/politics/ess...-another-initiative-1503000865-htmlstory.html People WATCH these things like what Catalonia is doing.... and yup, nations will consider that before officially recognizing Catalonia as an independent country.




.
 
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Speaking as a non-Californian, it would be a Godsend if Cali did become independent. However, that is unlikely and the other idea of splitting into three different states would never be approved by the Congress (or is it just the Senate?), whose approval would be required for that scheme to work.
 

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