Apologetics vs Honor

[Odë:hgöd]

.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you a
direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average Christian
typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of forthrightly
agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the defensive Christian
waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly concealing the unspeakable truth
that they too have sometimes entertained the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So; if
perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were unreasonable,
unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He wants to
hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly what He knows
already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or tiresome rhetoric, no, it
had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better be honest.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
God's questions themselves don't really matter all that much. What matters most is
whether people answer His interrogation honestly; because in order to establish a
productive rapport with God, people have to be transparent rather than secretive.

Now of course God already knows in advance how everyone will answer His
questions just as He already knew in advance whether Abraham would go thru with
sacrificing his son Isaac. But knowing is different than actually watching as an on
scene eye witness, and/or talking with folks one-on-one.

Jesus most likely knew in advance how Peter would answer when asked how he felt
about Jesus. But the Lord wasn't satisfied till Peter came out with his feelings face
to face.
_

 

[Josiah]

Some of my thoughts.....


To those without faith, Christianity is foolishness (as the Bible says). And they tend to be drawn (like a bug to a light) to things THEY hold are silly or offensive or just plain wrong - sometimes because they misunderstand and sometimes because they are faithless. Without the Holy Spirit and His gift of faith, it's foolishness, it's unknowable. How it is.


SOMETIMES, there's an easy, quick, rational "explanation" and here apologetics can be useful. There are a lot of MYTHS and MISCONCEPTIONS that can be corrected. But this likely will have no advantage.... they tend to just switch to some other issue (and may accuse the CHRISTIAN of not understanding or of selective faith). And remember: the brain cannot lead one to faith....


In my days as a scientist, I was not infrequently approached by agnostics,especially since everyone knew I am an active Christian. Never with anger or anything negative (I've found most agnostics to be fairly respectful, it's the atheist that are a problem). But I tended to avoid any discussions of their misconceptions and (irrelevant) questions. What I did (and do) is sometimes referred to as "I MESSAGES". "I look at this way.... I believe.... This is how I'm blessed.... this is what's meaningful/helpful to me." Rather than speak to their misconception (which often can't be corrected to their satisfaction anyway), I spoke of my faith... my God... my relationship to Christ.... the blessings I have in this. Rather than "deal" with their questions, I speak of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit works through the GOSPEL. And when I don't know, I just say I don't know.... I admit that we're talking about the SUPERnatural and we who are natural have a hard time cognatively understanding all that. I worked mostly with physicists and they clearly understand the distinction between "natural" and "supernatural" (and realize the later is beyond our understanding).


Christianity is not a random collection of factoids considered true whether they make sense or not, Christianity is trust/reliance in Christ, it's a living relationship with the God of mercy and grace. Again, I'm not opposed to apologetics (myths should be dispelled where they can be) I just remember it cannot convert and they'll just move over to yet another issue. The Holy Spirit works through the Gospel... and PEOPLE sharing that in real, organic, personal ways.


Blessings!


Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

Moving this thread to the proper forum as it doesn't belong in Bible Study.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.

I'm not opposed to apologetics (myths should be dispelled where they can be)

My chief complaint with apologizers is that they often keep secret that they too at
some time or another held to, and possibly still hold to, the same opinions as the
skeptics with whom they argue; which is why I strongly suggest making an effort
to sympathize with skeptics instead of condemning them.

The list below is extended to include a few more questions that pop up from time to
time.

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to prevent
the Serpent from tempting Eve?

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of
Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those punishments go too far,
i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that He
would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and created people
anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was something sick and
twisted about God for doing that?

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

FAQ: Why would God ask any of these questions?

A: There are many things that God knows about people that He doesn't have to
ask. However, there are times when knowing alone doesn't satisfy Him.

For example: God already knew in advance whether Abraham would go thru with
sacrificing his son Isaac. But knowing is different than actually watching a current
event in real time, as an on-scene eye witness.

In other words: what God knows in His head is very different than what He's seen
for himself. Same thing applies to Sodom and Gomorrah, It wasn't necessary for
God to come down out of Heaven and visit the city for Himself to know that it was a
deplorable community, but He did anyway because He wanted to see for Himself up
close and personal as an eye witness. Same goes for the Tower of Babel.

And Christ most likely knew in advance Peter's innermost thoughts when asked how
he felt about Jesus (John 21:15-17). But the Lord wasn't satisfied till Peter came
out with his feelings one on one, face to face, man to man.

Speaking for myself: I look forward to a sit down with God with about as much
pleasure as I look forward to a root canal; and like a root canal; I will be very glad
when it's over because I suspect that the grilling we're all facing won't be pleasant.

There are many questions in life that we can brush off as too personal; but God can't
be brushed off. If we try, He will only dig in His heels and force the issue till we finally
break.
_

 

[atpollard]

Why is this “theology” (study of God) so centered on how I felt, feel or may one day feel?
Where in Scripture is the hand-wringing angst of God over whether or not we approve?

I probably make a TERRIBLE evangelist, because I tend not to try and empathize with wanting to make an “evil” God answer to a “moral” mankind. I lived amorality and have no illusions about innate human goodness. The question is not “why did God drown millions of babies in the great flood?” The question is “Why did God bother to let eight people live? … look what they did with that gift.” It was NEVER about people and ALWAYS about God.

I don’t think an atheist, moralist, humanist or skeptic is ever going to understand without GOD first opening their eyes to … which way is up. They haven’t got a clue and are incapable of comprehending it.

 

[atpollard]

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to prevent
the Serpent from tempting Eve?

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of
Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those punishments go too far,
i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that He
would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and created people
anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was something sick and
twisted about God for doing that?

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

Let me know if you want honest answers to these questions.
I assume they were presented as rhetorical examples rather than actual inquiries.

 

[hedrick]

.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you a
direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average Christian
typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of forthrightly
agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the defensive Christian
waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly concealing the unspeakable truth
that they too have sometimes entertained the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So; if
perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were unreasonable,
unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He wants to
hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly what He knows
already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or tiresome rhetoric, no, it
had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better be honest.
_

The classic reference here is Job. God was not pleased with the apologizers. He answered in a fashion, but not with direct answers to the questions. Rather he had Job meet him.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.

Let me know if you want honest answers to these questions.

I'm not taking a poll. The questions are meant as an hypothetical situation.
_

 

[atpollard]

.


I'm not taking a poll. The questions are meant as an hypothetical situation.
_

Fair Dinkum.