Doubts in my Church

MoreCoffee

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Jesus is always there? What does that even mean? Where? ...

Jesus is there in his people. He is there in the gospel reading. He is there in the psalms and the prophets whose writings are read at every mass. Jesus is there in the holy Eucharist as he said he was. He is there when his people pray as they do at every mass. Jesus is Lord and he is with his people - he promised that he would be with them until the end of the ages. (Matt 28:20)
 

tango

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Don't get me wrong, the sermons (general church) are pretty good its really the bible study group hosts that I cannot agree with, I believe my brother has a ton of guilt and he is fully committed to all things pentecostal which I find nothing wrong with but he leads me and others into a really dark view of salvation, to him im sure its "light" but he is all works and he is determined to make "disciples" after his likeness or understanding. He means well and im all for his lifestyle but its just not me. He is not an antichrist but im sure even pastor would correct him if he attended his studies. The church does lack teaching of the cross which IS a big deal for me because when I combine the two (lack of teaching the work on the cross and my brothers self proclaimed initiation by his truth doctrine) I get very confused.

To be honest, without the cross just about everything else is fluff. Without the atoning work of Jesus Christ there's nothing to separate Christianity from countless other faiths. If you look at what a whole lot of other faiths believe it's all about man striving to please God, hoping that when it comes to judgment they will pass the test (but often knowing that if they fell short there's no way to salvage their eternal fate), then look at Christianity which flips it around and shows God reaching out to man in love and paying an enormous price to redeem us, the difference is stark. And to make it even more stark, if you get into the idea that we have to earn our salvation then essentially what is being said is that Jesus needn't have bothered dying that horrendous death on the cross because we've got our own plan.


If they or he truly believes that salvation is won through the church it frightens the heck out of me. My visions of hell are very vivid and I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, I have suffered with depression my whole life and that pretty much is a living state of death, I can personally call that a form of hell, and likewise would not wish it on my worst enemy, not stating he does but if my grandma who in my eyes has undoubtedly the full on Holy Spirit as a Catholic, is hell bound simply because she wasnt baptised in Jesus name alone, I just cant be involved with that belief. You cant pray for your lost loved ones? The church requires verbal evidence of the Holy Spirit? Shajggkahksmajdb lol
So yes its in the church but I never noticed it until the bible studies.

The belief that salvation is only available to members of one particular church sounds like one of the more controlling aspects of a cult, if I'm honest here. The idea that those outside cannot be saved, especially if paired with the notion that you could lose your salvation if you go to another church, is dangerous. As for evidence of the Holy Spirit, comparing Paul's writings in 1Co 12 and 14 to his writings in Gal 5 we can see how the Spirit gives the gifts as he wills (i.e. not everybody will have this gift or that gift) and can also see the fruit of the Spirit. If you want to see evidence of the Holy Spirit look for the fruit rather than the gifts. If someone doesn't prophesy or speak in tongues it doesn't mean they don't have the Spirit. If they show lots of fruit of the flesh and no fruit of the Spirit then we might wonder whether they really do have the Spirit.

Lam and snerfle, my first hellish nightmares came from Catholic teachings as well, and again mostly from sunday school, CCD/CCE and my parents who tried to scare me into acting right. The idea of literally burning in eternal torment and flames for not gaining salvation from a certain church with all of its works is something that still causes misery and depression, to believe good people and believers (followers of Christ) can still and will ultimately go to hell if they dont do this or that -that a church teaches.

Be a little careful writing off an entire denomination because of a bad experience with one particular church. When I was growing up I attended an Anglican church (through obligation rather than choice - I was too young to be left home alone) and frankly you'd find more life in a morgue than in that particular church. The local Methodist church was even worse. That's not to say that the Anglican denomination is no good, or that the Methodist denomination is no good, just that those two individual churches weren't places where I was going to grow. The fact I didn't want to be there at all obviously didn't help matters.

Im going off arent I? But it needs to be said in my case, the bible study guide has really screwed me over :( before I was really happy in the church but now i am starting to feel like Christianity is a small cult that only a very few will understand, that the resurrection of the dead is the rebirth, that eternal life is not a goal after death but is implied that we are one with God here and now and that we shouldnt worry about death because we are re-alive now spiritually and thus physically (resurrected from certain death). This contradicts the literal hell but at the same time confirms it as I cannot maintain any peace that I had when I first joined this forum.

It may be that the Bible study has merely highlighted some of the issues within this particular church and brought some errant teachings into sharp focus. A church I attended for a time seemed for a time like it was essentially sound but with a few fringe issues that were a little odd. Over time, as I got more involved, it became clear that the fringe issues weren't fringe at all - they were more or less central to the very identity of the church. So it became clear that the only sensible option was to leave the church and find another.

I apologise for this lengthy reply, I have been feeling really off today and want to explain my views while im in this terrible moment... its just the truth.
God bless and thank you for taking the time to read this through. :)

It is bewildering to be seriously considering the conclusion that something that once seemed very good is actually bad. If you do decide to leave this church (and to be honest with you it sounds like that is probably a good idea, given the number of red flags it continues to raise) you will probably feel even more bewildered for a time. At times like this it's important to remember God's promise that he will never leave us or forsake us and to focus on God's promise rather than whether or not we have a particular feeling of God being close.
 

Albion

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The belief that salvation is only available to members of one particular church sounds like one of the more controlling aspects of a cult, if I'm honest here.
--which our friend has been advised about before, but to no avail. Now he thinks that the cult may be a little bit "off." Well, duh.

If any of us decides, against better advice, to play with fire because it's warm or pretty, we actually may wind up getting burned.
 

tango

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Church customs are usually sensible in their historical context but sometimes they outstay their welcome. Pews were probably cheaper to make than lots of chairs - but now with mass-production of chairs made of plastic I imagine chairs are cheaper.

:smirk:

Pews and other bench-style seating arrangements are also handy because it lets people move up and down in continuous quantities. If all you have are chairs they need to be large enough to accomodate oversize adults, which then means that small children take up a lot more space than is needed (alternatively each individual seat is slightly undersized, which means people end up overhanging and intruding into adjacent spaces). With a pew the person who is twice their ideal body weight takes up the space they need and the 2-year-old child takes up the space they need.
 

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Pews are often grounded to the floor so it's easier to stand up than to do so from a chair for a lot of people.
 

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Pews sit hard and horrible and if you want to dance you have to go sit on the side, so noone wants to sit in the middle.
 

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Pews sit hard and horrible and if you want to dance you have to go sit on the side, so noone wants to sit in the middle.
Haha true, anyway I actually stand through out the services :)
 
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Imalive

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You really have a lot of churches there to pick from. It's much easier to pick one in Holland.
 
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Pews are often grounded to the floor so it's easier to stand up than to do so from a chair for a lot of people.

Wweeeellllll, I would say that a pew provides a much sturdier grab rail in front of you than any chair does. Plus, when it's a church that has kneeling, that support is even more important.
 

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Wweeeellllll, I would say that a pew provides a much sturdier grab rail in front of you than any chair does. Plus, when it's a church that has kneeling, that support is even more important.
Thats originally where I was going when I mentioned pews, the kneeling and bowing signing the cross before entering, I remember as kid always getting yanked back by my mom because I would forget that stuff. Plus I recall leaning against the pew in front to pray, gave the pews a bit more of a purpose than just being really long chairs

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Andrew

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You really have a lot of churches there to pick from. It's much easier to pick one in Holland.
Hmm I'll remember that next time I go there ;)
Sorry if my edited post confused you any, I felt its something I need to just do instead of just a mention, and if this is confusing you im sorry again lol nvrmnd

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Thats originally where I was going when I mentioned pews, the kneeling and bowing signing the cross before entering, I remember as kid always getting yanked back by my mom because I would forget that stuff. Plus I recall leaning against the pew in front to pray, gave the pews a bit more of a purpose than just being really long chairs

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That's right as concerns the pews being helpful for leaning against when kneeling, but the pews don't have anything in particular to do with the ceremonies going on. Before the churches used pews, they used chairs; and some very old cathedrals still have them.
 

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Do you also have these old cold churches? We rented one once. My, the evening before you had to put the heater on, otherwise it was really cold.
 

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Do you also have these old cold churches? We rented one once. My, the evening before you had to put the heater on, otherwise it was really cold.

we need to turn the air conditioner on to keep the church cool :)
 

tango

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Do you also have these old cold churches? We rented one once. My, the evening before you had to put the heater on, otherwise it was really cold.

I remember a village church near where I grew up. It had a huge vaulted ceiling but the heaters were well over head height. Of course when they were turned on the first thing they did was heat the space high over everybody's heads. That church had astronomical heating bills one winter, and the next winter it was always cold in there.
 

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To be honest, without the cross just about everything else is fluff. Without the atoning work of Jesus Christ there's nothing to separate Christianity from countless other faiths. If you look at what a whole lot of other faiths believe it's all about man striving to please God, hoping that when it comes to judgment they will pass the test (but often knowing that if they fell short there's no way to salvage their eternal fate), then look at Christianity which flips it around and shows God reaching out to man in love and paying an enormous price to redeem us, the difference is stark. And to make it even more stark, if you get into the idea that we have to earn our salvation then essentially what is being said is that Jesus needn't have bothered dying that horrendous death on the cross because we've got our own plan.




The belief that salvation is only available to members of one particular church sounds like one of the more controlling aspects of a cult, if I'm honest here. The idea that those outside cannot be saved, especially if paired with the notion that you could lose your salvation if you go to another church, is dangerous. As for evidence of the Holy Spirit, comparing Paul's writings in 1Co 12 and 14 to his writings in Gal 5 we can see how the Spirit gives the gifts as he wills (i.e. not everybody will have this gift or that gift) and can also see the fruit of the Spirit. If you want to see evidence of the Holy Spirit look for the fruit rather than the gifts. If someone doesn't prophesy or speak in tongues it doesn't mean they don't have the Spirit. If they show lots of fruit of the flesh and no fruit of the Spirit then we might wonder whether they really do have the Spirit.



Be a little careful writing off an entire denomination because of a bad experience with one particular church. When I was growing up I attended an Anglican church (through obligation rather than choice - I was too young to be left home alone) and frankly you'd find more life in a morgue than in that particular church. The local Methodist church was even worse. That's not to say that the Anglican denomination is no good, or that the Methodist denomination is no good, just that those two individual churches weren't places where I was going to grow. The fact I didn't want to be there at all obviously didn't help matters.



It may be that the Bible study has merely highlighted some of the issues within this particular church and brought some errant teachings into sharp focus. A church I attended for a time seemed for a time like it was essentially sound but with a few fringe issues that were a little odd. Over time, as I got more involved, it became clear that the fringe issues weren't fringe at all - they were more or less central to the very identity of the church. So it became clear that the only sensible option was to leave the church and find another.



It is bewildering to be seriously considering the conclusion that something that once seemed very good is actually bad. If you do decide to leave this church (and to be honest with you it sounds like that is probably a good idea, given the number of red flags it continues to raise) you will probably feel even more bewildered for a time. At times like this it's important to remember God's promise that he will never leave us or forsake us and to focus on God's promise rather than whether or not we have a particular feeling of God being close.
I felt really close to God the first couple of months in that church and it wasn't just in my head or anything but a real presence, not only that but my life completely changed around for the better after my first couple of visits. I was afraid that I did something wrong when I would start having doubts about some of the people there, just feeling a little empty again.
My testimony is very strong for everyone who has seen me since, I believe its why I was asked to join the study group so suddenly. Now when I first went to this group it was only me and the couple teaching, turns out when I finished the first study after 2 visits I was told that I was the first to complete the study. He has been told by another brother to back off, my brother is very eager to "save" others and he tends to speak first without thinking which is where I think im getting confused. The church itself is great but confusion seems to drift in the midst because most of these converts will believe anything and even the people that confuse them were themselves confused by other gullible people. I have been reading scripture since 2011 and he has been reading since 8 months ago. He doesnt feel confused, they dont, just me, and for a very good reason! They get their study pamphlets from some online upc (im guessing) website and they gullibly learn and teach it.
They want me to eventually share my testimony at church one day and if I do, im going to stick to my guns and testify how God saved me outside the Pentecostal church and it took me years of studying his Word to realise that.
So whatever trial this is im facing im just going to have to trust in God and face the music. Prayers are helping btw and all these diverse views im getting from everyone here really highlights the main beliefs and facts we all share as believers, I really appreciate your help and sound advice, keep it up and thanks again. God bless

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tango

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I felt really close to God the first couple of months in that church and it wasn't just in my head or anything but a real presence, not only that but my life completely changed around for the better after my first couple of visits. I was afraid that I did something wrong when I would start having doubts about some of the people there, just feeling a little empty again.
My testimony is very strong for everyone who has seen me since, I believe its why I was asked to join the study group so suddenly. Now when I first went to this group it was only me and the couple teaching, turns out when I finished the first study after 2 visits I was told that I was the first to complete the study. He has been told by another brother to back off, my brother is very eager to "save" others and he tends to speak first without thinking which is where I think im getting confused. The church itself is great but confusion seems to drift in the midst because most of these converts will believe anything and even the people that confuse them were themselves confused by other gullible people. I have been reading scripture since 2011 and he has been reading since 8 months ago. He doesnt feel confused, they dont, just me, and for a very good reason! They get their study pamphlets from some online upc (im guessing) website and they gullibly learn and teach it.
They want me to eventually share my testimony at church one day and if I do, im going to stick to my guns and testify how God saved me outside the Pentecostal church and it took me years of studying his Word to realise that.
So whatever trial this is im facing im just going to have to trust in God and face the music. Prayers are helping btw and all these diverse views im getting from everyone here really highlights the main beliefs and facts we all share as believers, I really appreciate your help and sound advice, keep it up and thanks again. God bless

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The trouble with "feeling close to God" is that it can so easily become a subjective experience that isn't grounded in anything. As a feeling it is remarkably similar to the natural feeling of euphoria you'd get at a music concert, or after singing a lot of upbeat music for an extended period. You know the way a lot of the more charismatic churches insist on starting everything with "a time of worship" which invariably means singing a load of songs, often singing the same verse (or sometimes just the same couple of lines) over and over and over? That sort of thing can create the sense of euphoria that people then mistake for God's presence - it doesn't help when they are actively told it is God's presence they are feeling - and then spend untold amounts of energy chasing another "high" like the one they experienced. If they're really lucky they go around the cycle of huge high at church followed by coming back down to reality on Monday morning, Tuesday at the latest, back to the high at church, wondering what they are doing wrong because God never seems to stay with them, and then come across a really toxic teaching like the serpent seed stuff and end up wondering if they are just one of the tares Jesus described and will never be saved whatever they do.

The way people will believe anything is a classic example why the Biblical call to "test all things" and "test the spirits" (1Th 5:21 and 1Jn 4:1) are so important. It's why Paul praised the Bereans in Acts 17 for the way they studied the Scriptures to see whether things were so. If all people do is nod their heads all the way through a sermon or a Bible study, assuming that everything being said from the front is right, who knows what kind of dodgy teachings they may pick up without every questioning them? If all you do is read pamphlets from a single source, take them at face value, and gloss over any complications or Scriptural contradictions it's easy to see why you might never be confused. If you test the pamphlets against Scripture and find they fall short, sooner or later you have to decide which to believe.

ETA: This may not be the case at your church, but if people are expected to teach only from approved texts that's another really good sign that you should be headed for the exit.

The trouble with so many toxic teachings is that they do appear, on the face at least, to be sound. To take a simple example, a teaching from a self-described "prophet" in his deceptively titled "prophetic activation training" is that "when visions start, we should trust they are from God and accept them like a child" - he goes on to say something along the lines of "if we pray for an anointing in the seer realm we can be confident that the power of God to protect us is stronger than the power of the devil to deceive us". It all sounds pretty good - it's presented in a way that suggests that a belief that the devil might mislead us implies the devil is stronger than God. But it doesn't take much scratching at it to see how it falls short. God gave us his word in the Scriptures and if we go against what God told us he's not necessarily going to step in and prevent it. We know the devil is out there, like a roaring lion, we know the devil seeks to tempt us, we know we face regular opportunities to decide to sin or decide not to sin. To suddenly pluck one single aspect of our spiritual walk out and suggest that somehow God will magically take temptation away from us, when we've actively ignored what God already told us, we really are playing with fire. It didn't work out too well for Adam and Eve and is unlikely to work out any better for us today.

It's funny the things God can use to reach out to us. I've heard some people present arguments along the lines of "if it leads someone to Christ it must be sound" but even that falls flat. One of the things that helped me move much closer to God when I was at that wavering stage was reading through the book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. In case you're wondering, I am referring to the world-renowned atheist and his book about how he believes God is, well, a delusion. It's not the most obvious catalyst for prompting someone to become a Christian but God can use anything and everything. That said, to argue that "The God Delusion" is theologically sound because helped lead me to Christ is clearly absurd.
 

MoreCoffee

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I felt really close to God the first couple of months in that church and it wasn't just in my head or anything but a real presence, not only that but my life completely changed around for the better after my first couple of visits. I was afraid that I did something wrong when I would start having doubts about some of the people there, just feeling a little empty again.
My testimony is very strong for everyone who has seen me since, I believe its why I was asked to join the study group so suddenly. Now when I first went to this group it was only me and the couple teaching, turns out when I finished the first study after 2 visits I was told that I was the first to complete the study. He has been told by another brother to back off, my brother is very eager to "save" others and he tends to speak first without thinking which is where I think im getting confused. The church itself is great but confusion seems to drift in the midst because most of these converts will believe anything and even the people that confuse them were themselves confused by other gullible people. I have been reading scripture since 2011 and he has been reading since 8 months ago. He doesnt feel confused, they dont, just me, and for a very good reason! They get their study pamphlets from some online upc (im guessing) website and they gullibly learn and teach it.
They want me to eventually share my testimony at church one day and if I do, im going to stick to my guns and testify how God saved me outside the Pentecostal church and it took me years of studying his Word to realise that.
So whatever trial this is im facing im just going to have to trust in God and face the music. Prayers are helping btw and all these diverse views im getting from everyone here really highlights the main beliefs and facts we all share as believers, I really appreciate your help and sound advice, keep it up and thanks again. God bless

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Be wise and careful and remember that whatever comes do your best to be faithful to God and a co-worker with Christ in the salvation of the souls of those you encounter but do not burden yourself with things you cannot carry let God carry the weight of other people's souls and you proclaim the message of grace and mercy.
 

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The trouble with "feeling close to God" is that it can so easily become a subjective experience that isn't grounded in anything. As a feeling it is remarkably similar to the natural feeling of euphoria you'd get at a music concert, or after singing a lot of upbeat music for an extended period. You know the way a lot of the more charismatic churches insist on starting everything with "a time of worship" which invariably means singing a load of songs, often singing the same verse (or sometimes just the same couple of lines) over and over and over? That sort of thing can create the sense of euphoria that people then mistake for God's presence - it doesn't help when they are actively told it is God's presence they are feeling - and then spend untold amounts of energy chasing another "high" like the one they experienced. If they're really lucky they go around the cycle of huge high at church followed by coming back down to reality on Monday morning, Tuesday at the latest, back to the high at church, wondering what they are doing wrong because God never seems to stay with them, and then come across a really toxic teaching like the serpent seed stuff and end up wondering if they are just one of the tares Jesus described and will never be saved whatever they do.

The way people will believe anything is a classic example why the Biblical call to "test all things" and "test the spirits" (1Th 5:21 and 1Jn 4:1) are so important. It's why Paul praised the Bereans in Acts 17 for the way they studied the Scriptures to see whether things were so. If all people do is nod their heads all the way through a sermon or a Bible study, assuming that everything being said from the front is right, who knows what kind of dodgy teachings they may pick up without every questioning them? If all you do is read pamphlets from a single source, take them at face value, and gloss over any complications or Scriptural contradictions it's easy to see why you might never be confused. If you test the pamphlets against Scripture and find they fall short, sooner or later you have to decide which to believe.

ETA: This may not be the case at your church, but if people are expected to teach only from approved texts that's another really good sign that you should be headed for the exit.

The trouble with so many toxic teachings is that they do appear, on the face at least, to be sound. To take a simple example, a teaching from a self-described "prophet" in his deceptively titled "prophetic activation training" is that "when visions start, we should trust they are from God and accept them like a child" - he goes on to say something along the lines of "if we pray for an anointing in the seer realm we can be confident that the power of God to protect us is stronger than the power of the devil to deceive us". It all sounds pretty good - it's presented in a way that suggests that a belief that the devil might mislead us implies the devil is stronger than God. But it doesn't take much scratching at it to see how it falls short. God gave us his word in the Scriptures and if we go against what God told us he's not necessarily going to step in and prevent it. We know the devil is out there, like a roaring lion, we know the devil seeks to tempt us, we know we face regular opportunities to decide to sin or decide not to sin. To suddenly pluck one single aspect of our spiritual walk out and suggest that somehow God will magically take temptation away from us, when we've actively ignored what God already told us, we really are playing with fire. It didn't work out too well for Adam and Eve and is unlikely to work out any better for us today.

It's funny the things God can use to reach out to us. I've heard some people present arguments along the lines of "if it leads someone to Christ it must be sound" but even that falls flat. One of the things that helped me move much closer to God when I was at that wavering stage was reading through the book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. In case you're wondering, I am referring to the world-renowned atheist and his book about how he believes God is, well, a delusion. It's not the most obvious catalyst for prompting someone to become a Christian but God can use anything and everything. That said, to argue that "The God Delusion" is theologically sound because helped lead me to Christ is clearly absurd.

Right on, we can stomp on snakes all day but they dont lead the way, God left a trail of them lol
The presence feeling I had is usually at home praying when I was very broken, I felt it when praying in church, outside church I feel it more like stern father ready to smite me if I yelp a curse word or something lol nothing dark or creepy but out of respect and fear and feel his presence in certain situations especially when I get upset, I then hear in my conscience as him speaking the most kind reassuring words and encouragement that brings me back to him. The first visit to the church I remember coming home and I wept and cried and sobbed over his love the whole night, i felt his forgiveness and mercy I almost couldn't accept it but I trusted him and thanked him. Thats when things really started looking up in my life. I understand what you mean by reality hits in on monday and such and such, thats true but its not the same as what I was describing, those feelings you are mentioning is more like a runners high

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mtzopera

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DHoffman-It sounds like you are in a "Oneness Pentecostal Church", which in most Christian circles teaches "modalism," the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature. You should do some deeper research on this heretical doctrine. It sounds like the Holy Spirit is directing you elsewhere.
 
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