What does God's Sovereignty mean?

Imalive · Jan 9, 2018

God's sovereignty:

Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’

7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

MennoSota · Jan 9, 2018

Josiah said:
The most radical expression of double predestination possible..... and a point you keep making. And obviously what you think "sovereignty of God" means since it's your point in this thread (and others).

No. You have provided no Scripture that states that God equally chooses punishment for some, nothing to substantiate the double predestination you preach.

You have coined a term from your own imagination, Josiah.
The Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It says that The wages of sin is death. The Bible tells us that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. It says that there is none righteous, not even one.
At what point does it sink in to you that we are wicked beyond comprehension when compared to a holy God?
Question: Is God obligated to save humanity from its own lawlessness?
Question: Is God obligated to love filthy humanity? (The Bible says we are all like filthy rags.)
Question: Are we born in sin?

Josiah, what I express is a most radical mercy, a most radical expression of unmerited favor displayed by God to those whom He chooses to display such grace.
Question: Should God be unjust and ignore sin by not choosing to punish sinners?
You seem to imagine that God, justly bringing the full force of judgment on lawbreakers, equals a "predestination" when in fact God never compelled anyone to break his laws. Humans just rebel by their own sinfulness.
I posted a number of links in the forum on the problem of evil. Go read them.
On this topic, your claim of double predestination is illegitimate and merely a smoke screen for your own inability to accept God's Sovereignty over your own life.

Josiah · Jan 9, 2018

MennoSota said:
Josiah said:

MennoSota said:

God chooses pardon for some and chooses punishment for others.

.

Click to expand...

The most radical expression of double predestination possible..... and a point you keep making. And obviously what you think "sovereignty of God" means since it's your point in this thread (and others).

.

Click to expand...

You have coined a term from your own imagination, Josiah.

Your claim of double predestination is illegitimate and merely a smoke screen for your own inability to accept God's Sovereignty

.

No.

What you posted IS the verbatim most radical expression of double predestination. And once again, you make it extremely clear that to you, double predestination is not only inseparable from the issue of God's sovereignty (you constantly link them as throughout this thread and in several others) but you give your extreme double predestination concept as the evidence and mandate of double predestination.

No one has yet disagreed with you concerning God being sovereign. Only your constant insistence that ERGO double predestination in justification MUST be true.

No. You have provided no Scripture that states that God equally chooses punishment for some, nothing to substantiate the double predestination you preach. Yes, IMO, you have substantiated that God is the reason for salvation (the historic view of Christianity; that God is the "Author and Giver of Life" as the ancient Creed puts it and as the Ecumenical Council of Orange dogmatized) but not that equally God is the active "Giver and Author of Death and Hell." Instead of any attempt to substantiate your very radical form of double predestination, this conjecture of one man in the 16th Century that you have taken to its ultimate extreme, rather than even attempting to substantiate it, you keep echoing the point that God is sovereign and thus it's just gotta be true. No. Every Christian for 1500 plus years accepted God's sovereignty but not the double predestination in justification you keep echoing; today the vast majority of Christians (all here at CH) accept God's sovereignty but VERY few (none her at CH) accept your uber-double predestination conjecture. Consider that. It MUST be possible to accept God's soverignty but NOT your radical conjecture of double predestination in justification because virtually all Christians do.

Calvin and Arminius BOTH promoted new human CONJECTURES based not on Scripture or Tradition (or on the sovereignty of God) but on their own sense of human LOGIC. BOTH did EXACTLY the same thing to the same degree - just starting at opposite points. And BOTH run EQUALLY into a lot of Scriptures that their conjecture flatly contradicts ... and neither gave a rip, they just "spin" those verses 180 degrees so that they they state the exact opposite of what the words say. Both did that. Equally. Both "see" it in the other but not in themselves (Jesus' log/speck point). And both run head on into the sovereignty of God too because both equally insist that God is subject to their own human sense of logic, God's declaration is subject to what each of them thinks, that self is the designated Corrector of God, Answer Man for God, the one to rescue God from seeming illogical or perhaps just remiss; both equally insist that God's sovereignty is subject to their own brain and conjectures.

A blessed New Year to you and yours....

- Josiah

.

MennoSota · Jan 9, 2018

Josiah said:
No. What you posted IS the verbatim most radical expression of double predestination; you may not like that label but it is what it is. And once again, you make it extremely clear that to you, double predestination is not only inseparable from the issue of God's sovereignty (you constantly link them as throughout this thread and in several others) but you give your extreme double predestination concept as the evidence and mandate of double predestination.

No one has yet disagreed with you concerning God being sovereign. Only your opinion that ERGO double predestination in justification MUST be true.

No. You have provided no Scripture that states that God equally chooses punishment for some, nothing to substantiate the double predestination you preach. Yes, IMO, you have substantiated that God is the reason for salvation (the historic view of Christianity; that God is the "Author and Giver of Life" as the ancient Creed puts it and as the Ecumenical Council of Orange dogmatized) but not that equally God is the active "Giver and Author of Death and Hell." Instead of any attempt to substantiate your very radical form of double predestination, this conjecture of one man in the 16th Century that you have taken to its ultimate extreme, rather than even attempting to substantiate it, you keep echoing the point that God is sovereign and thus it's just gotta be true. No. Every Christian for 1500 plus years accepted God's sovereignty but not the double predestination in justification you keep echoing; today the vast majority of Christians (all here at CH) accept God's sovereignty but VERY few (none her at CH) accept your uber-double predestination conjecture. Consider that.

Calvin and Arminius BOTH promoted new human CONJECTURES based not on Scripture or Tradition (or on the soveriegnty of God) but on their own sense of human LOGIC. BOTH did EXACTLY the same thing to the same degree - just starting at opposite points. And BOTH run EQUALLY into a lot of Scriptures that their conjecture flately contradicts ... and neither gave a rip, they just "spin" those verses 180 degrees so that they they state the exact opposite of what the words say. Both did that. Equally. Both run head on into the sovereignty of God too because both equally insist that God is subject to their own human sense of logic, God's declaration is subject to what each of them thinks, that self is the designated Corrector of God, Answer Man for God, the one to rescue God from seeming illogical or perhaps just remiss.

A blessed New Year to you and yours....

- Josiah

LOL, you are living in a fantasy world with a made-up concept of your own design, Josiah. If you need to make stuff up to keep your feet firmly planted in your denomination then so be it. You are free to hold to a non-biblical view.
I also note that you never answered one of my questions. Thus, I understand that you are avoiding scripture while jumping to your fantasy concept.

meluckycharms · Jan 9, 2018

MennoSota said:
You have coined a term from your own imagination, Josiah.

Double predestination is a relatively basic term in theology. I apologize but you are revealing your genuine ignorance in very basic theological concepts. I would highly recommend reading a book on systematic theology. Any will do. There are plenty of reformed theology books to choose from.

I am not quite sure if you are qualified to make such strong theological assertions. Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe what you want. However, you appear to be lacking the fundamental theological basics to make yourself credible. This is just my honest observation.

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Imalive · Jan 9, 2018

Make it a three double for me. What is it even? I dont wanna know.

meluckycharms · Jan 9, 2018

Imalive said:
Make it a three double for me. What is it even? I dont wanna know.

Don't forget the bacon and cheese.

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meluckycharms · Jan 9, 2018

Imalive said:
Make it a three double for me. What is it even? I dont wanna know.

Basically, in regards to predestination, there are two schools of thought. Single-predestination (S)and Double-predestination (D). S basically is the belief that everyone is deserving Hell. However, God only predestined those elected to be saved. It would be like as if a hundred people were waiting to board a flight to heaven and Jesus only had 50 preregistered tickets. Not everyone will get a ticket and the tickets that are available has the person's name already on it. Aquinas argued that it is not unfair because we are all deserving death. It is through grace that God gives anyone a ticket at all. Refer the the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

D would be like as if God had preregistered tickets to heaven for the elect and a comprehensive "do not fly" roster for the non-elect that would ban them from the flight even if they wanted to.

Free will Christians would say that Jesus has a ticket for everyone and is giving them away freely. All you have to do is ask. Many choose not to ask and will not go to heaven.

I hope this clears things up.

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Albion · Jan 9, 2018

What about the theory that there are 150 seats on the plane, and God gives out 50 tickets to the people he chooses, meaning that the remaining seats are up for grabs as far as other people hoping to get on that flight are concerned??.

Josiah · Jan 9, 2018

meluckycharms said:
Basically, in regards to predestination, there are two schools of thought. Single-predestination (S)and Double-predestination (D). S basically is the belief that everyone is deserving Hell. However, God only predestined those elected to be saved. It would be like as if a hundred people were waiting to board a flight to heaven and Jesus only had 50 preregistered tickets. Not everyone will get a ticket and the tickets that are available has the person's name already on it. Aquinas argued that it is not unfair because we are all deserving death. It is through grace that God gives anyone a ticket at all. Refer the the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

D would be like as if God had preregistered tickets to heaven for the elect and a comprehensive "do not fly" roster for the non-elect that would ban them from the flight even if they wanted to.

Free will Christians would say that Jesus has a ticket for everyone and is giving them away freely. All you have to do is ask. Many choose not to ask and will not go to heaven.

I hope this clears things up.

.

Here's how Lutherans view it.....

God wills all to be saved, God provides for all to be saved, Jesus IS THE Savior (100%, all-sufficient; NO ONE contributes ANYTHING to their coming to life, regeneration, justification - Jesus does it, God is the Author and Giver of Life as the ancient Creed and the Council of Orange put it so as to give 100% of the credit for justification to God ALONE). He doesn't just offer or provide it - He is the One who GIVES it (the Creed and Council and orthodox/historic Christianity insists). Because I'm justified, there is only one and exclusively one reason: God. And God chose and arranged all this before I was born (obviously, one pre-born can't arrange anything; the Dead can't will or do or choose anything) ALREADY unconditionally loving me and THUS already blessing me.

Obviously, not all are justified. But this is not God's desire or choice or action... indeed, it breaks His heart. But (again, agreeing with the Creed, with the Council of Orange and with Scripture) God is NOT the Author and Giver of Death and Hell but rather the Author and Giver of Life; it is not God's equal desire to see most fry eternally in hell because He gets off on it and He feels this glorifies Him; so the reality that many are not justified is in no way God's doing, God's fault, with GOD to blame for the population of hell. Why is it, then, that hell is populated? Scripture doesn't say - other than to place the blame on the individual, not God. Lutherans (like the Creed, like the Council, officially like the church until two private individuals came around in the 16th century with conflicting, "logical" conjectures) are SILENT on this second question..... but (unofficially anyway) do not accept that God is the one to blame, that God equally desires this, that God "gets off" on seeing most people fry eternally in hell, that God feels that glorifies Himself.... Lutherans unofficially think God weeps at that, it is the antithesis of His heart's desire... that God is glorified by those in heaven, not hell.... by those alive, not dead.

I personally conclude that the Lutheran (and historic, orthodox Christianity) view FAR MORE embraces the sovereignty of God than that of Calvin or Arminius. Both of them insist that God's sovereignity is subject to their own; that God's Word is subject to their own sense of "logic" and what God can and can't do; that God MUST agree with their own sense of "logic" in order for God to be as smart as they are; that SELF is needed to correct God and to supply the answers that God didn't supply. IMO, accepting the sovereignty of God is being subject to Him.... knowing He is always right even if what He has chosen to tell us doesn't SEEM to self to be "logical".... the willingness to shut up and let God be God.... the willingness to shut up and let God has the last word and to admit that God probably knows more about all this than self does. Even if that means we can't "connect the dots." Accepting the sovereignty of God often means accepting Mystery - and being okay with that. IMO, the Lutheran perspective here FAR more lifts up the sovereignty of God than does the conjectures, the "logical constructs", of Calvin and Arminius.

Thank you.

- Josiah

meluckycharms · Jan 9, 2018

Josiah said:
Here's how Lutherans view it.....

God wills all to be saved, God provides for all to be saved, Jesus IS THE Savior (100%, all-sufficient; NO ONE contributes ANYTHING to their coming to life, regeneration, justification - Jesus does it, God is the Author and Giver of Life as the ancient Creed and the Council of Orange put it so as to give 100% of the credit for justification to God ALONE). He doesn't just offer or provide it - He is the One who GIVES it (the Creed and Council and orthodox/historic Christianity insists). Because I'm justified, there is only one and exclusively one reason: God. And God chose and arranged all this before I was born (obviously, one pre-born can't arrange anything; the Dead can't will or do or choose anything) ALREADY unconditionally loving me and THUS already blessing me.

Obviously, not all are justified. But this is not God's desire or choice or action... indeed, it breaks His heart. But (again, agreeing with the Creed, with the Council of Orange and with Scripture) God is NOT the Author and Giver of Death and Hell but rather the Author and Giver of Life; it is not God's equal desire to see most fry eternally in hell because He gets off on it and He feels this glorifies Him; so the reality that many are not justified is in no way God's doing, God's fault, with GOD to blame for the population of hell. Why is it, then, that hell is populated? Scripture doesn't say - other than to place the blame on the individual, not God. Lutherans (like the Creed, like the Council, officially like the church until two private individuals came around in the 16th century with conflicting, "logical" conjectures) are SILENT on this second question..... but (unofficially anyway) do not accept that God is the one to blame, that God equally desires this, that God "gets off" on seeing most people fry eternally in hell, that God feels that glorifies Himself.... Lutherans unofficially think God weeps at that, it is the antithesis of His heart's desire... that God is glorified by those in heaven, not hell.... by those alive, not dead.

I personally conclude that the Lutheran (and historic, orthodox Christianity) view FAR MORE embraces the sovereignty of God than that of Calvin or Arminius. Both of them insist that God's sovereignity is subject to their own; that God's Word is subject to their own sense of "logic" and what God can and can't do; that God MUST agree with their own sense of "logic" in order for God to be as smart as they are; that SELF is needed to correct God and to supply the answers that God didn't supply. IMO, accepting the sovereignty of God is being subject to Him.... knowing He is always right even if what He has chosen to tell us doesn't SEEM to self to be "logical".... the willingness to shut up and let God be God.... the willingness to shut up and let God has the last word and to admit that God probably knows more about all this than self does. Even if that means we can't "connect the dots." Accepting the sovereignty of God often means accepting Mystery - and being okay with that. IMO, the Lutheran perspective here FAR more lifts up the sovereignty of God than does the conjectures, the "logical constructs", of Calvin and Arminius.

Thank you.

- Josiah

Your position is a very valid and respectable position to have.

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MennoSota · Jan 9, 2018

Albion said:
What about the theory that there are 150 seats on the plane, and God gives out 50 tickets to the people he chooses, meaning that the remaining seats are up for grabs as far as other people hoping to get on that flight are concerned??.

Bible reference?

MennoSota · Jan 9, 2018

Josiah said:
Here's how Lutherans view it.....

God wills all to be saved, God provides for all to be saved, Jesus IS THE Savior (100%, all-sufficient; NO ONE contributes ANYTHING to their coming to life, regeneration, justification - Jesus does it, God is the Author and Giver of Life as the ancient Creed and the Council of Orange put it so as to give 100% of the credit for justification to God ALONE). He doesn't just offer or provide it - He is the One who GIVES it (the Creed and Council and orthodox/historic Christianity insists). Because I'm justified, there is only one and exclusively one reason: God. And God chose and arranged all this before I was born (obviously, one pre-born can't arrange anything; the Dead can't will or do or choose anything) ALREADY unconditionally loving me and THUS already blessing me.

Obviously, not all are justified. But this is not God's desire or choice or action... indeed, it breaks His heart. But (again, agreeing with the Creed, with the Council of Orange and with Scripture) God is NOT the Author and Giver of Death and Hell but rather the Author and Giver of Life; it is not God's equal desire to see most fry eternally in hell because He gets off on it and He feels this glorifies Him; so the reality that many are not justified is in no way God's doing, God's fault, with GOD to blame for the population of hell. Why is it, then, that hell is populated? Scripture doesn't say - other than to place the blame on the individual, not God. Lutherans (like the Creed, like the Council, officially like the church until two private individuals came around in the 16th century with conflicting, "logical" conjectures) are SILENT on this second question..... but (unofficially anyway) do not accept that God is the one to blame, that God equally desires this, that God "gets off" on seeing most people fry eternally in hell, that God feels that glorifies Himself.... Lutherans unofficially think God weeps at that, it is the antithesis of His heart's desire... that God is glorified by those in heaven, not hell.... by those alive, not dead.

I personally conclude that the Lutheran (and historic, orthodox Christianity) view FAR MORE embraces the sovereignty of God than that of Calvin or Arminius. Both of them insist that God's sovereignity is subject to their own; that God's Word is subject to their own sense of "logic" and what God can and can't do; that God MUST agree with their own sense of "logic" in order for God to be as smart as they are; that SELF is needed to correct God and to supply the answers that God didn't supply. IMO, accepting the sovereignty of God is being subject to Him.... knowing He is always right even if what He has chosen to tell us doesn't SEEM to self to be "logical".... the willingness to shut up and let God be God.... the willingness to shut up and let God has the last word and to admit that God probably knows more about all this than self does. Even if that means we can't "connect the dots." Accepting the sovereignty of God often means accepting Mystery - and being okay with that. IMO, the Lutheran perspective here FAR more lifts up the sovereignty of God than does the conjectures, the "logical constructs", of Calvin and Arminius.

Thank you.

- Josiah

Bible reference?
It is tiresome to read so many unsubstantiated opinions with no biblical substance.

Josiah · Jan 9, 2018

Ephesians 1:4-5, 11
Ephesians 3:3-14
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
John 3:16
Romans 2:8
Matthew 23:37
Acts 13:46
2 Corinthians 5:19
2 Thessalonians 2:13
2 Timothy 1:9
Romans 9:11
Romans 11:5
Acts 13:48
Romans 8:28–30
2 Timothy 2:10
1 Peter 1:2
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 22:14
Acts 13:48
John 13:18
2 Timothy 2:19
Mark 13:20, 22

meluckycharms · Jan 9, 2018

MennoSota said:
Bible reference?

1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16, John 1:29, Romans 11:32, 1 John 2:2 suggests that God desires that all are saved and rejects limited atonement.

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meluckycharms · Jan 9, 2018

Josiah said:
Ephesians 1:4-5, 11
Ephesians 3:3-14
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
John 3:16
Romans 2:8
Matthew 23:37
Acts 13:46
2 Corinthians 5:19
2 Thessalonians 2:13
2 Timothy 1:9
Romans 9:11
Romans 11:5
Acts 13:48
Romans 8:28–30
2 Timothy 2:10
1 Peter 1:2
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 22:14
Acts 13:48
John 13:18
2 Timothy 2:19
Mark 13:20, 22

Darn, you beat me to it. It probably won't matter. Ten posts from now MenneSota will probably claim again that we are not reading our Bibles.

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user1234 · Jan 9, 2018

meluckycharms said:
Darn, you beat me to it. It probably won't matter. Ten posts from now MenneSota will probably claim again that we are not reading our Bibles.

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Hey...at least he's reading your posts.
Try having the great majority of what you write get either shot down immediately as if you have no right to an opinion on anything, or else the more common tactic of being totally ignored.

And when asked why, about the only reason you're given is that your posts are too long, which is a pretty funny statement as I read along in this thread, and many others.(or perhaps some find them too boring and need more stimulating entertainment)
:spinningsmilie:

opworm: I disagree. I havent had this much fun since the operation. :chairfall:

atpollard · Jan 10, 2018

meluckycharms said:
1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16, John 1:29, Romans 11:32, 1 John 2:2 suggests that God desires that all are saved and rejects limited atonement.

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1 Tim 2:4 ... maybe, I would need to look closer at the context to offer a meaningful opinion.

2 Peter 3:9 ... No, not really. Looking at it in context:

2 Peter 3:3-9 NASB
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [fn]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Makes it clear that God will most certainly NOT save all men. The question being asked by mockers is "where is this judgement of God?" and verse 9 presents the answer that God is delaying his wrath that will surely fall on the ungodly until all of the godly have come to repentence. 2 Peter 3:9 in no way negates the possibility of limited atonement as far as I can tell. It says NOTHING about whose sins Christ died for, nor does it say that God desires all men to be saved.

John 3:16 ... Ah, the ever popular John 3:16. Taken all by itself, we use it to teach sports fans everywhere that God believes in Universalism. Why don't people just look two verses further down and quote John 3:18? So let's al least read the whole paragraph , shall we:

John 3:16-21 NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

It doesn't actually say that God WANTS all men to believe, does it? It says that whoever believes will not perish (John 3:16) and that those that do not believe are already judged (John 3:18) and that men love darkness (all men?) and avoid the light of Jesus (John 3:19-20) and only the deeds wrought in God come into the light (John 3:21). Hey, isn't that what Calvinism and verses like John 6:44 say?

Sorry, I have to go to bed.
Early morning tomorrow at work.
Feel free to read the rest of your scriptures in context and see if they actually say anything about God wanting all men to be saved.
So far, most are not even close.

meluckycharms · Jan 11, 2018

atpollard said:
1 Tim 2:4 ... maybe, I would need to look closer at the context to offer a meaningful opinion.

2 Peter 3:9 ... No, not really. Looking at it in context:

2 Peter 3:3-9 NASB
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [fn]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Makes it clear that God will most certainly NOT save all men. The question being asked by mockers is "where is this judgement of God?" and verse 9 presents the answer that God is delaying his wrath that will surely fall on the ungodly until all of the godly have come to repentence. 2 Peter 3:9 in no way negates the possibility of limited atonement as far as I can tell. It says NOTHING about whose sins Christ died for, nor does it say that God desires all men to be saved.

John 3:16 ... Ah, the ever popular John 3:16. Taken all by itself, we use it to teach sports fans everywhere that God believes in Universalism. Why don't people just look two verses further down and quote John 3:18? So let's al least read the whole paragraph , shall we:

John 3:16-21 NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

It doesn't actually say that God WANTS all men to believe, does it? It says that whoever believes will not perish (John 3:16) and that those that do not believe are already judged (John 3:18) and that men love darkness (all men?) and avoid the light of Jesus (John 3:19-20) and only the deeds wrought in God come into the light (John 3:21). Hey, isn't that what Calvinism and verses like John 6:44 say?

Sorry, I have to go to bed.
Early morning tomorrow at work.
Feel free to read the rest of your scriptures in context and see if they actually say anything about God wanting all men to be saved.
So far, most are not even close.

You are confused. I don't believe in universal salvation. Rather, I don't believe in limited atonement nor dual-predestination. Meaning that everyone has the opportunity to be saved. However, many choose not to take that opportunity. Jesus died for everyone. All means all. Not just the elect.

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Imalive · Jan 11, 2018

1 Timothy 2. How much clear can it be?
But if you dont believe that, are you gonna pray for all man? Are you gonna stand on the Word if your family member rejects Jesus and bind that devil that blinds him anyway? And do warfare and lay your life down in prayer for that person in faith? Me and my house. Period. Back off devil.
If you dont even know if God wants everyone to be saved how on earth do you pray? Like if you dont believe God wants to heal everyone? Might as well go play bingo and not pray at all if you dont even believe God wants to save everyone. Now if someone sinned against the Spirit its useless btw. Sin unto death you dont have to pray for says James.

What does God's Sovereignty mean?

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