Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

Pedrito · Feb 10, 2018

Post 255:

Its just a footnote, but the term is High Church Anglicans, meaning that they favor a lot of ceremony.

I thank that Poster for pointing out my slip of the pen.

It doesn't imply much as regards doctrine except for that which is common among Anglicans.

Well, the Low Church Anglicans do not believe in baptismal regeneration, as do at least some levels of High Church Anglicans. Nor does the “Low Church” believe in praying to dead people (“saints”).

(For East Coast Aussies: ) I once belonged to the “Low Church” Sydney diocese (primarily supplied by ministers trained at Moore Theological College), but had contact with people who had undertaken the more ritualistic training at Morpeth and other places. I also once spent a pleasant afternoon while on holidays, discussing comparative church matters after attending a morning service in Coffs Harbour (High Church Anglican).

I suggest that there are significant differences between the various levels of “High” and “Low” in what has been from its very foundation a compromised mixture of outlooks.

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Now, could association with ritualism versus association with evangelicalism versus association with the ill-defined faith of modernistic churches, be an indication of “Why are Some Saved and Not Others”?

Albion · Feb 10, 2018

Pedrito said:
Well, the Low Church Anglicans do not believe in baptismal regeneration, as do at least some levels of High Church Anglicans. Nor does the “Low Church” believe in praying to dead people (“saints”).

It's probably true that Evangelical Anglicans, as a group, do not believe in baptismal regeneration. So yes, there are differences, although they probably are fewer than is commonly supposed.

MennoSota · Feb 10, 2018

So much philosophy and denominational dogma. So little scripture.
The Bible says God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.
What did God choose them out of? The Bible tells us we were a part of the kingdom of darkness. Alienated from God. In essence, rebels in our rebel land.
God chose to perform a rescue mission and selected some rebels that He claimed as citizens of the Kingdom of God. He then sent these elect to live in rebel lands and be Ambassadors of the Kingdom of God, sharing the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5)
Those rebels whom God chose before the foundation of the world will hear his call to reconciliation and be made citizens of the Kingdom of God. The rest remain in the kingdom of darkness.
Why? What criterion did God use when He chose whom to rescue?
The answer is: God doesn't tell us. God keeps that information to Himself and He is not compelled to share.
You can spend your lifetime philosophizing and making up an imaginary checklist, but you and I will never know the process by which God chose. God doesn't ask us to figure it out. God doesn't desire to share. God does what He does without answering to anyone because...God is the Sovereign King over His Kingdom. That's enough and I pledge my loyalty to my King. I trust Him. Do you trust Him?

meluckycharms · Feb 11, 2018

MennoSota said:
So much philosophy and denominational dogma. So little scripture.
The Bible says God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.

Who specifically are the "elect"?

atpollard · Feb 11, 2018

meluckycharms said:
Who specifically are the "elect"?

Those the Father gave to the Son ...
John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

The Saints, as explained in Ephesians ...
Ephesians 1:1-14
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

atpollard · Feb 11, 2018

meluckycharms said:
Who specifically are the "elect"?

Those given by the Father to the Son ...
John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.“

The ‘saints’, as explained in Ephesians 1:1-14
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

meluckycharms · Feb 11, 2018

atpollard said:
Those the Father gave to the Son ...
John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

The Saints, as explained in Ephesians ...
Ephesians 1:1-14
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Where does it say that only the elect will be saved? Where does it say that "elect" = everyone who is saved?

In other words, where specifically in the Bible does election and salvation become a binary either/or issue? If you are not elected to be saved you will never be saved nor will you ever have the opportunity to be saved?

atpollard · Feb 11, 2018

meluckycharms said:
Where does it say that only the elect will be saved? Where does it say that "elect" = everyone who is saved?

In other words, where specifically in the Bible does election and salvation become a binary either/or issue? If you are not elected to be saved you will never be saved nor will you ever have the opportunity to be saved?

Do you have no idea, or am I being baited?
Assuming it is an honest question, I will first state that I have no intention to play semantic games with the exact word “elect”. However, I clearly saw the concept when trying to reconcile MY salvation to the following verses:

John 6:43-45 NASB
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

“All”, “none”, “no one” and “everyone” seem pretty all inclusive.

Then there are some ‘hints’:

John 10:22-30 NASB
22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Pedrito · Feb 16, 2018

What would be the reaction of the average American, if someone from another country who was not a native speaker of English, presumed to know more about the English language than Americans did, and began to spruik invalid “authoritative” conclusions about the meanings of words, and those of utterances made in publications?

Would there not be a strong reaction against the audacity and arrogance of such a person?

Yet that is exactly what Christendom has been doing since early in its history – assigning foreign meanings to words found in the original Bible languages, as convenient support for some of the doctrines developed after Apostolic times.

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Post #254 offered some typical Bible quotes to support the “Mary is the Mother of God” concept.

Now, based on the Jesus’ statement in John 4:24 that “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”, then truth seems to be an important element in mankind’s salvation – not simply submitting to rituals or having some kind of possibly inappropriate faith, or taking for granted that one is within that company labelled "the elect".

Maybe “Why are some saved and not others” should be “How are some saved and not others”.

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Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead true Christians into “all truth”.

But when I raised that statement in another thread before, and pointed out that it invalidated the confusion within Christendom regarding doctrine and practice, someone felt duty bound to proclaim (illogically but necessarily) that “all truth” meant only the truth required for salvation.

However, even that “truth” is not agreed on. So the superficiality of that statement is obvious.

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So I am sorely tempted once again to take take my life in my hands (as it were) and take a reasoned look at Scripture references that have been tendered (this time those presented in Post #254).

Should I dare?

atpollard · Feb 16, 2018

Pedrito said:
So I am sorely tempted once again to take take my life in my hands (as it were) and take a reasoned look at Scripture references that have been tendered (this time those presented in Post #254).

Should I dare?

Yes.
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Unfotunately, you should probably start a different thread for it since both post #254 and your response would likely have nothing to do with 'salvation'.
[On the plus side, starting a topic is worth 3 points vs only 1 point for a post ... glass half full.]

Pedrito · Feb 19, 2018

Post #264 (meluckycharms): Who specifically are the "elect"?

atpollard, Post #265: Those the Father gave to the Son, supported by John 17:24.

The Saints, as explained in Ephesians, supported by Ephesians 1:1-14.

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meluckycharms in Post #267: Where does it say that only the elect will be saved? Where does it say that "elect" = everyone who is saved?

In other words, where specifically in the Bible does election and salvation become a binary either/or issue? If you are not elected to be saved you will never be saved nor will you ever have the opportunity to be saved?

atpollard, Post #268: Do you have no idea, or am I being baited?
Assuming it is an honest question, I will first state that I have no intention to play semantic games with the exact word “elect”. However, I clearly saw the concept when trying to reconcile MY salvation to the following verses:, supported by John 6:43-45.

“All”, “none”, “no one” and “everyone” seem pretty all inclusive.

Then there are some ‘hints’:, supported by John 10:22-30 and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

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Strong’s H972 בּחיר Bachiyr chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God).

For example:

Isaiah 42:1(speaking of the Messiah): Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, [in whom] My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the nations.

Isaiah 45:4 (speaking of whom?): For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 65:8,9: Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isaiah 65:21,22: 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them ; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

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Strong's ἐκλεκτός Eklektos picked out, chosen, chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God, the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable, choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

For example:

Matthew 20:16: So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

1 Timothy 5:21: I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2 Timothy 2:10: Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Food for thought?

Pedrito · Jun 30, 2018

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Post #87:

There is only one inspired creed, found in 1 Corinthians 15. Any other creed is subject to false statements.

And

Indeed, what does God's word tell us?

Well, some people understand the following to be generally applicable statements. Related ones, even.

Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Romans 6:7: “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

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According to my observation, that consolidated understanding normally integrates with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (focusing on members of the True Church):

“13 Now I want you to know, my brethren, that you should not grieve over those who are dead, as those do who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those who have died in Jesus, God will bring with him.
15 For this we say to you by the very word of our LORD, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of our LORD shall not overtake those who are dead.
16 For our LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and those who died in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we, who are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet our LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with our LORD.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

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It would help my personal understanding immensely, were it to be pointed out where that particular consolidated understanding conflicts with the four “anchor” creeds.

(Excluding of course, the salvation by works taught by the Athanasian Creed.)

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TurtleHare · Jun 30, 2018

Pedrito said:
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Post #87:

And

Well, some people understand the following to be generally applicable statements. Related ones, even.

Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Romans 6:7: “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

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According to my observation, that consolidated understanding normally integrates with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (focusing on members of the True Church):

“13 Now I want you to know, my brethren, that you should not grieve over those who are dead, as those do who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those who have died in Jesus, God will bring with him.
15 For this we say to you by the very word of our LORD, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of our LORD shall not overtake those who are dead.
16 For our LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and those who died in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we, who are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet our LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with our LORD.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

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It would help my personal understanding immensely, were it to be pointed out where that particular consolidated understanding conflicts with the four “anchor” creeds.

(Excluding of course, the salvation by works taught by the Athanasian Creed.)

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There are only 3 ecumenical creeds not 4 since -
"The great and central mystery of the union of the divine and human in Christ, which the Formula desires to uphold, is overstated and endangered by its doctrine of the genus majestaticum, or the communication of the divine attributes to the human nature of Christ. This doctrine runs contrary to the ἀσυγχύτως and ἀτρέπτως of the Chalcedonian Creed. It leads necessarily—notwithstanding the solemn protest of the Formula—to a Eutychian confusion and æquation of natures; for, according to all sound philosophy, the attributes are not an outside appendix to the nature and independent of it, but inherent qualities, and together constitute the nature itself. Or else it involves the impossible conception of a double set of divine attributes—one that is original, and one that is derived or transferred." From the book Creeds of Christendom.

I can see how if you don't understand the Athanasian creed you might think its pushing works but it ain't. Works come because we got faith for our salvation, not to bring salvation to us.

tango · Jun 30, 2018

MennoSota said:
By a just Judge and King's sovereign decree? No, I am not amazed by what is right and just.
God is just and justice is good. All humanity is damned to hell by humanities rebellion. It is sad that humans rebelled in Adam, but it is amazing that the just Judge would transfer his Judgment to Jesus atoning sacrifice for those whom he so wills.
Why do you cringe and complain against the Sovereign King and Creator for choosing as He wills without condescending to your desire to know why he makes the choices he does? God owes you or me no explanation.
God is good all the time and all the time God is good.

It's a bit odd that God should inspire verses like this:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If the truth of the matter is that he actually predestined billions to not come to repentance and therefore perish.

MennoSota · Jun 30, 2018

tango said:
It's a bit odd that God should inspire verses like this:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If the truth of the matter is that he actually predestined billions to not come to repentance and therefore perish.

It's not odd if you actually read all pf 2 Peter and see what Peter is actually addressing. The only way it seems odd is if you choose to isolate two or three sentences and ignore everything around those sentences...then create an imaginary theology from them.
I went through 2 Peter 3 and walked people through this in the past. I would thoroughly enjoy it if people would quit being biblically lazy with 2 Peter 3.

Arsenios · Jun 30, 2018

meluckycharms said:
After going to seminary I soon realized that theology has a lot of grey.
There is very rarely a right or a wrong answer.
Only possible answers, each as valid as the other.

Wow... Nothing could be more false...

Which is why systematic theology, hermeneutics, and apologetics are so important.

Actually, that is why repentance and discipleship, learning to carefully observe all that Christ commanded us to be doing, is far more important than the vanity of the intellectual mastery of the Bible...

Unfortunately, these topics are woefully lacking in many churches today.

Why? Actually, it proves that God actually exists!

Is this the condition of ALL Protestant Seminaries?

Arsenios

MennoSota · Jul 1, 2018

meluckycharms said:
Where does it say that only the elect will be saved? Where does it say that "elect" = everyone who is saved?

In other words, where specifically in the Bible does election and salvation become a binary either/or issue? If you are not elected to be saved you will never be saved nor will you ever have the opportunity to be saved?

Ephesians 1 lets us know that God chooses, adopts and predestined. Ephesians 2 lets us know that God is the one who gives life to the spiritually dead. Romans 8 lets us know that there is no condemnation for those who are placed in Christ Jesus by God's election. Not only are the elect placed in Christ, but nothing can ever separate the elect from God.
The term "saved" implies that the person cannot help themselves. An outside power must choose to act and thus keep the person from dying in their sins. What term does the Bible use for those whom God chooses to "save?"
Does God "save" everyone who is hopelessly and helplessly perishing? Is God required to "save" everyone who is hopelessly and helplessly perishing? Can God elect whom he chooses to "save" while watching the rest...justly...perish? Is God unjust and evil if he chooses not to be merciful to sinners?

psalms 91 · Jul 1, 2018

Not my theology, I do not believe once saved always saved as this makes a reality and I also dont believe that we dont choose, I am sure that I am not alone on this site in believing this way and it seems that this has already been discussed many times so I will not rehash it here. No matter how many times you say it I wont accept it

MoreCoffee · Jul 1, 2018

psalms 91 said:
Not my theology, I do not believe once saved always saved as this makes a reality and I also dont believe that we dont choose, I am sure that I am not alone on this site in believing this way and it seems that this has already been discussed many times so I will not rehash it here. No matter how many times you say it I wont accept it

A wholly adequate answer to the thread's question and to nearly every objection is that people are saved or not according to what they do and believe. So you, brother psalms 91 are correct. People make a choice and their choice determines their state after the last judgement and the resurrection. Some will enter the kingdom of God and some will go to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (to use some older style English).

MoreCoffee · Jul 1, 2018

Arsenios said:
Wow... Nothing could be more false...

Actually, that is why repentance and discipleship, learning to carefully observe all that Christ commanded us to be doing, is far more important than the vanity of the intellectual mastery of the Bible...

Why? Actually, it proves that God actually exists!

Is this the condition of ALL Protestant Seminaries?

Arsenios

Brother Arsenios many protestant bible colleges and seminaries spend some time on "character formation" but many do not spend much effort on it.

Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

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... and you shall live ...

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