Purgatory?

MennoSota · Nov 1, 2017

Imalive said:
Post salvation is sanctification is working out your salvation, otherwise he wouldn't warn. I'm not confused at all. Paul warns believers. Without sanctification you can lose salvation. I might write confusing though. I wondered what they taught.

Hebrews 12

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.bib...?search=Hebrews+12&version=NKJV&interface=amp

You seem to imagine that you can work your way out of your salvation. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assessment.

Imalive · Nov 1, 2017

MennoSota said:
You seem to imagine that you can work your way out of your salvation. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assessment.

Yes the Bible warns that you have to hear the Word and do it. Great falling away, foolish virgins their lamps had gone out. Parable of the sower: they believe for a while til temptation comes.

John the baptist: bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

John 15
Oh btw here, purgatory is on earth:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

MennoSota · Nov 1, 2017

Imalive said:
Yes the Bible warns that you have to hear the Word and do it. Great falling away, foolish virgins their lamps had gone out. Parable of the sower: they believe for a while til temptation comes.

John the baptist: bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

John 15
Oh btw here, purgatory is on earth:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Smh...
John 6:37-39
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

Albion · Nov 1, 2017

Imalive said:
John 15
Oh btw here, purgatory is on earth:

Please. Poetic comments like that one are meant to convey some sort of message, I understand, BUT Purgatory is not here on Earth.

Even if there were a Purgatory, nothing about it corresponds to something here on Earth; and to say that it does...just risks adding to the confusion that most people have about the meaning and working of Purgatory as the Catholic church created it.

MoreCoffee · Nov 1, 2017

Tertullian wrote

We make yearly offerings for the dead, and for the feasts of the martyrs

She prays for his soul, and begs repose for him and his company in the first resurrection, and offers on the anniversary days of his death. For if she does not these things, she has, as much as lies in her, divorced him.

St. Clement of Alexandria wrote

By punishment after death, men must expiate the least sin before they can enter Heaven.

St. Cyprian of Carthage

It is one thing to hope for forgiveness, and another to enter into eternal glory; one thing to be cast into prison and not to go out from thence until the last farthing is paid, and another immediately to receive the reward of faith and virtue; one thing to be tortured for sins by long-lasting pains and purged by fire, and another to have already expiated sin [here below] by martyrdom.

It is one thing to be cast into prison not to be released until the last farthing is paid, and another thing through the ardor of faith immediately to attain to the reward.

Those who think that the early church writers and early church fathers give useful information about what the early church taught and believed may find the above quotes helpful.

Albion · Nov 1, 2017

Now, if Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John had said 'word one' about a Purgatory...we'd have something!

MoreCoffee · Nov 1, 2017

Albion said:
Now, if Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John had said 'word one' about a Purgatory...we'd have something!

St. Paul has several words to say about being purged by fire. St. Peter too writes about it. The Lord Jesus Christ too spoke of being purged. Purgatory is to be purged from impurity, to burn off dross, to burn away what is perishable.

Albion · Nov 1, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
St. Paul has several words to say about being purged by fire.

True, but nothing about Purgatory.

St. Peter too writes about it. The Lord Jesus Christ too spoke of being purged. Purgatory is to be purged from impurity, to burn off dross, to burn away what is perishable.

All sorts of interpretations can be placed on that evidence, but the main problem is that what you are referring to possibly--but only possibly--refers to about 5% of what makes Purgatory what it (supposedly) is. That's like arguing that Lee Harvey Oswald must have shot JFK because, after all, we know for a fact that he lived in Dallas.

And if the sketchy "evidence" you presented here had meant what the RCC wants it to mean, it wouldn't have taken 1400 years for the Church to notice Purgatory.

MoreCoffee · Nov 1, 2017

I'll "pass" on the fringe interpretations, Albion.

Imalive · Nov 2, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Tertullian wrote

We make yearly offerings for the dead, and for the feasts of the martyrs

She prays for his soul, and begs repose for him and his company in the first resurrection, and offers on the anniversary days of his death. For if she does not these things, she has, as much as lies in her, divorced him.

St. Clement of Alexandria wrote

By punishment after death, men must expiate the least sin before they can enter Heaven.

St. Cyprian of Carthage

It is one thing to hope for forgiveness, and another to enter into eternal glory; one thing to be cast into prison and not to go out from thence until the last farthing is paid, and another immediately to receive the reward of faith and virtue; one thing to be tortured for sins by long-lasting pains and purged by fire, and another to have already expiated sin [here below] by martyrdom.

It is one thing to be cast into prison not to be released until the last farthing is paid, and another thing through the ardor of faith immediately to attain to the reward.

Those who think that the early church writers and early church fathers give useful information about what the early church taught and believed may find the above quotes helpful.

not be released until the last farthing is paid:
the slave who refused to forgive, it says til he pays the last penny.
But there is nothing to pay with. Only the blood of Jesus. And that slave just went to hell.
My granddad was an antitheist. The night before he died God said to me: You've got the keys. Use them. Tomorrow will be too late.
If someone sins, confess it and ask God for forgiveness (1 John 1:9) and His blood cleanses you from all unrighteousness.
The old testament saints couldnt immediately go to heaven, except Elijah and Enoch. They were in Abraham's bosom though until Jesus got em out and He preached to the ppl from before the flood. Maybe they got out when He took the captives, I hope so for em.
Tertullian says make yearly offerings. There is only one offer that's good enough to get someone out of hell and they have to accept it before they die. If you believe in Me you have eternal life and don't come into judgement.

MennoSota · Nov 2, 2017

I prefer the Bible rather than human surmising...
Hebrews 9:24-28
[24]For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.
[25]And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal.
[26]If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.
[27]And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment,
[28]so also Christ was offered once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

No purgatory.

MennoSota · Nov 2, 2017

Imalive said:
Tertullian says make yearly offerings. There is only one offer that's good enough to get someone out of hell and they have to accept it before they die. If you believe in Me you have eternal life and don't come into judgement.

If they have not been chosen by God before the foundation of the world they cannot accept it. The gospel is foolishness to the perishing. The gospel is only light to those whom God chooses to save.
A dead person cannot choose.

Andrew · Nov 5, 2017

Imalive said:
Yes the Bible warns that you have to hear the Word and do it. Great falling away, foolish virgins their lamps had gone out. Parable of the sower: they believe for a while til temptation comes.

John the baptist: bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

John 15
Oh btw here, purgatory is on earth:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Amen "purgatory" is the here and now!
We pray for salvation of others here and now for the living not for the dead.

Albion · Nov 5, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Amen "purgatory" is the here and now!
We pray for salvation of others here and now for the living not for the dead.

How does that add up to Purgatory being here and now? That doesn't seem to share anything with the Catholic concept of Purgatory.

Andrew · Nov 5, 2017

Albion said:
How does that add up to Purgatory being here and now? That doesn't seem to share anything with the Catholic concept of Purgatory.

Im sorry, I am twisting the term to redirect to the here and now, the correct term refers to the afterlife, Im using the word as a concept term personally.

MoreCoffee · Nov 5, 2017

Purging from sins occurs here and now as well as after physical death and before being in the presence of God.

Imalive · Nov 5, 2017

1John 1:7b
…the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1John 1:9b
…he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 9:14

how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful

MoreCoffee · Nov 5, 2017

Imalive said:
1John 1:7b
…the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1John 1:9b
…he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 9:14

how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Never be afraid of the word purge nor of the state of being purged - purgatory - just because Catholics use the word. Protestants are full of fears and superstitions about words and days. Some are frightened of Christmas and Easter because they think that days can be pagan and satanic some desire to keep Sabbath on Saturday because they've become superstitious about which day "is the right one". Some are fearful of baptismal regeneration because they fear adding man's works to their salvation. And, of course, many are superstitious about purgatory because it's Catholic. It is Catholic and it is biblical and it is what Jesus Christ teaches. But because it is Catholic they are afraid of it.

psalms 91 · Nov 5, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Never be afraid of the word purge nor of the state of being purged - purgatory - just because Catholics use the word. Protestants are full of fears and superstitions about words and days. Some are frightened of Christmas and Easter because they think that days can be pagan and satanic some desire to keep Sabbath on Saturday because they've become superstitious about which day "is the right one". Some are fearful of baptismal regeneration because they fear adding man's works to their salvation. And, of course, many are superstitious about purgatory because it's Catholic. It is Catholic and it is biblical and it is what Jesus Christ teaches. But because it is Catholic they are afraid of it.

It is Catholic but it is niot taught by the bible, An invention to raise money by buying your way out me thinks

Albion · Nov 5, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Im sorry, I am twisting the term to redirect to the here and now, the correct term refers to the afterlife, Im using the word as a concept term personally.

Yes. People do that with other issues, too, so I know where you're coming from. But unless you're offering an alternate way of looking at some of what Purgatory does or is, it doesn't seem appropriate to use the word at all. To say "my idea of Purgatory is X," in a case where X has nothing at all to do with what Purgatory is or does, confuses the hearer. Best instead to say, "I don't believe in Purgatory, but I do believe in ...."

Purgatory?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Matt 18:15

Well-known member

Matt 18:15

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member