Election

RichWh1

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So practically speaking, IF there is NOTHING I can do to join the Elect...

Grab the Beer and the remote and WAIT for God to do something??

Arsenios

God point. We are told to seek the Lord while He may be found. Sitting and waiting is not seeking.




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MennoSota

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God point. We are told to seek the Lord while He may be found. Sitting and waiting is not seeking.




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Those whom God does not quicken will consider the gospel to be foolishness. We whom God has quickened are called to be ambassadors of reconciliation.
 

RichWh1

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Those whom God does not quicken will consider the gospel to be foolishness. We whom God has quickened are called to be ambassadors of reconciliation.

I don’t think that is correct. Paul says otherwise when writing to Timothy
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB


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MennoSota

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I don’t think that is correct. Paul says otherwise when writing to Timothy
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB


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This has been addressed elsewhere. The "all" is not universal. Other translations will use the word "many."
If God desired all, universal, to be saved...they would be. God is not hog tied by man's will and thus incapable of acting.
 

RichWh1

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This has been addressed elsewhere. The "all" is not universal. Other translations will use the word "many."
If God desired all, universal, to be saved...they would be. God is not hog tied by man's will and thus incapable of acting.

When you have Peter saying basically the same thing, it makes it difficult to dismiss or say that it refers to a different ‘all’ or sub category of people.

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:8-9 -NASB

Both Peter and Paul are referring to the same group of people. Both use the word all, yet you say it is a different All than all? (pan)
If all is not ‘all’ then who are all? Do some have an excuse? Yep according to your argument.


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MennoSota

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When you have Peter saying basically the same thing, it makes it difficult to dismiss or say that it refers to a different ‘all’ or sub category of people.

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:8-9 -NASB

Both Peter and Paul are referring to the same group of people. Both use the word all, yet you say it is a different All than all? (pan)
If all is not ‘all’ then who are all? Do some have an excuse? Yep according to your argument.


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I went through 2 Peter 3 and showed very, very clearly that Peter cannot be using a universal "all." Read the entire passage from verse 1. The passage is about judgment. People are completely taking Peter out of context when they claim universalism from 2 Peter 3:9.
 

RichWh1

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I went through 2 Peter 3 and showed very, very clearly that Peter cannot be using a universal "all." Read the entire passage from verse 1. The passage is about judgment. People are completely taking Peter out of context when they claim universalism from 2 Peter 3:9.

So then you’re advocating that man is not responsible for his salvation and since he cannot control whether he is saved or not, he is not guilty. Is this your stance?


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RichWh1

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If not all are ‘chosen’ as you say, then how can you hold them responsible for not being forgiven?


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MennoSota

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So then you’re advocating that man is not responsible for his salvation and since he cannot control whether he is saved or not, he is not guilty. Is this your stance?


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What does Paul tell us in Romans 9?

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
 

Arsenios

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God point.
We are told to seek the Lord while He may be found.
Sitting and waiting is not seeking.

The God point was totally on accident, OK??

Arsenios :)
 

MennoSota

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If not all are ‘chosen’ as you say, then how can you hold them responsible for not being forgiven?


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God is not obligated to forgive anyone. The justice of God on lawbreakers demands His wrath and enforcement of punishment.
People can tell a judge they are sorry to their hearts content, but the judge is not obligated to forgive their crime. On the contrary, the judge is obligated to enforce the penalty of law breaking upon the criminal. All humanity is responsible before God for their law breaking. Why is God required to forgive us of our crimes?
If God chooses to pardon it is solely by His will to do so. His justice and wrath is meted out upon Jesus as our atoning sacrifice. This is precisely why Jesus atonement is limited to the elect and not effectual for all humanity.
 

RichWh1

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God is not obligated to forgive anyone. The justice of God on lawbreakers demands His wrath and enforcement of punishment.
People can tell a judge they are sorry to their hearts content, but the judge is not obligated to forgive their crime. On the contrary, the judge is obligated to enforce the penalty of law breaking upon the criminal. All humanity is responsible before God for their law breaking. Why is God required to forgive us of our crimes?
If God chooses to pardon it is solely by His will to do so. His justice and wrath is meted out upon Jesus as our atoning sacrifice. This is precisely why Jesus atonement is limited to the elect and not effectual for all humanity.

Then they should not be held responsible for their unbelief. An unjust God might hold them responsible, not a just God!
If they have no chance to repent and turn to God is it their fault??


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RichWh1

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I went through 2 Peter 3 and showed very, very clearly that Peter cannot be using a universal "all." Read the entire passage from verse 1. The passage is about judgment. People are completely taking Peter out of context when they claim universalism from 2 Peter 3:9.

And this is for what reason?



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MennoSota

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Then they should not be held responsible for their unbelief. An unjust God might hold them responsible, not a just God!
If they have no chance to repent and turn to God is it their fault??


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You can blame God if you wish. God tells you how he works in Romans 9. Hate God if you wish, but that doesn't change what God does, nor does it change the fact that He is just and good. It just makes you bitter toward God.
Do you ever wonder why there will be anger, bitterness and gnashing of teeth in hell? Even in hell, people will blame God for their sinfulness.
 

MennoSota

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And this is for what reason?



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Read all of 2 Peter 3, then figure it out. Peter tells you.
 

psalms 91

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Maybe the problem is not blaming God buit rather rejecting your view of election. We are predestined and why is that? It is because of Gods foreknowledge which is how He knew us b from before the womb. Based on that knowledge He predestines because He already knows the choices we will make therefore it is us to blame and not God but it is also our choice and not some arbitrary decision by God like some lottery.
 

MoreCoffee

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2peter 3:1 Dearly beloved, this is the second letter I write to you. In both of them, I have intended to remind you of sound doctrine. 2 Do not forget the words of the holy prophets, and the teaching of our Lord and Saviour, as you heard it, through his apostles. 3 Remember, first of all, that, in the last days, scoffers will appear, their mockery serving their evil desires. 4 And they will say, “What has become of his promised coming? Since our fathers in faith died, everything still goes on, as it was from the beginning of the world.” 5 Indeed, they deliberately ignore, that, in the beginning, the heavens existed first, and earth appeared from the water, taking its form by the word of God. 6 By the same word of God, this world perished in the Flood. 7 Likewise, the word of God maintains the present heavens and earth, until their destruction, by fire; they are kept for the day of judgement, when the godless will be destroyed. 8 Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather, he gives you time, because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion. 10 The Day of the Lord is to come like a thief. Then, the heavens will dissolve with a great noise; the elements will melt away by fire, and the earth, with all that is on it, will be burned up. 11 Since all things are to vanish, how holy and religious your way of life must be, 12 as you wait for the day of God, and long for its coming, when the heavens will dissolve in fire, and the elements melt away in the heat. 13 We wait for a new heaven and a new earth, in which justice reigns, according to God’s promise. 14 Therefore, beloved, as you wait in expectation of this, strive, that God may find you rooted in peace, without blemish or fault. 15 And consider, that God’s patience is for our salvation, as our beloved brother, Paul, wrote to you, with the wisdom given him. 16 He speaks of these things in all his letters. There are, however, some points in them that are difficult to understand, which people, who are ignorant, and immature in their faith, twist, as they do with the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 So then, dearly beloved, as you have been warned, be careful, lest those people who have gone astray, deceive you, in turn, and drag you along, making you stumble, and finally fall away. 18 Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ: to him be glory, now, and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Well, there's the chapter so what is supposed to be in it that is specifically about election?
 
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atpollard

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Maybe the problem is not blaming God buit rather rejecting your view of election. We are predestined and why is that? It is because of Gods foreknowledge which is how He knew us b from before the womb. Based on that knowledge He predestines because He already knows the choices we will make therefore it is us to blame and not God but it is also our choice and not some arbitrary decision by God like some lottery.
“foreknow” refers to a relationship between people, not a knowledge of future facts (omniscience).
 

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“foreknow” refers to a relationship between people, not a knowledge of future facts (omniscience).

What is the justification for that claim?

The passage that refers to God's foreknowledge in relation to election is
Romans 11:1-10 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life. 4 But what is God's response to him? I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal. 5 So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day. 9 And David says: Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever.​
The Complete Word Study Dictionary say that the word translated as foreknew is defined as follows
προγινώσκω
proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253), before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know. To perceive or recognise beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.
(I) Used of mere prescience, to know before (Act 26:5; 2Pe 3:17).
(II) Used of God's eternal counsel it includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point. Rather, it is presented as that which God gave prior consent to, that which received His favourable or special recognition. Hence, this term is reserved for those matters which God favourably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.
(A) Used of persons, to foreknow with approbation, to fore-approve or make a previous choice of, as special people (Rom 8:29; Rom 11:2).
(B) Used of events, to previously decide or plan, to foreknow for God is to foreordain 1Pe 1:19-20 presents Christ as the "Lamb of God foreknown from the foundation of the world" (a.t.). He is said to be foreknown because God had planned and determined in His eternal counsel to provide His Son as a sacrifice for His people. Certainly more is meant than that God knew ahead of time that Christ would so come and die. God's foreknowledge is given here as the cause for His Son's sacrifice-because He planned and decreed it.
(C) In Rom 8:29, in relation to believers, proginṓskō occurs with the verb proṓrise, aor. act. indic. of proorízō (G4309), to predestine. Foreknowledge and foreordination are logically coordinate. The former emphasises the exercise of God's wisdom and intelligence in regard to His eternal purpose and the latter emphasizes the exercise of God's will in regard to it. What He has decreed is what He has decided. This foreknowledge and foreordination in the Scripture are always unto salvation and not unto perdition. Therefore, it should be said that the Lord never foreordains someone to be lost. Rather, He foreordains unto salvation those whom He specially considered and chose in eternity past (see Mat 7:23; Joh 10:14; Rom 11:2; 1Co 8:3; Gal 4:9; 2Ti 2:19; Sept.: Hos 13:5; Amo 3:2). Any thought of the lost being appointed or ordained unto condemnation should be understood as an act of passing over in which the lost are permitted to suffer the consequences of their choice of sin (1Pe 2:8). The salvation of every believer is known and determined in the mind of God before its realisation in time. Thus, proginṓskō corresponds with the idea of having been chosen (eklégomai [G1586], to choose) before the foundation of the world mentioned in Eph 1:4 and logically precedes the action indicated by proorízō. Proginṓskō essentially entails a gracious self- determining on God's part from eternity to extend fellowship with Himself to undeserving sinners (Rom 8:29).
Deriv.: prógnōsis (G4268), foreknowledge.
Syn.: problépō (G4265), to look out beforehand, to supply in advance, foresee; proeídō (G4275) and prooráō (G4308), to foresee; proetoimázō (G4282), to ordain or prepare before; prokuróō (G4300), to confirm or ratify before; prolégō (G4302), to tell or say beforehand; promeletáō (G4304), to premeditate; promerimnáō (G4305), to take thought or care beforehand; pronoéō (G4306), to know or consider in advance; proorízō (G4309), to set limits in advance, ordain beforehand, predestinate.​
The definition does not support your claim very well. The main thought in the word is to know beforehand which is what brother psalms 91 said. Proginosko is the source of English language words like prognostication and prognosticate.
 
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