The "What" and "Why" of "Sacraments"

Josiah · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
Could we take what we already have discussed and identify any or all possible sacraments?

it would depend upon the definition.... denominations define and understand this VERY differently.

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
Almost every Christian church or denomination acknowledges some Sacraments, but the matter is usually unclear to the average church member. He or she simply participates in what the church puts before them.

What makes any ritual be a Sacrament? How many are there and how would we know?

When Jesus/God says "do this", we do it.
Many teachings of church denominations, pre-reformation, were created to keep people in the church out of fear they would lose their salvation. Both communion and baptism are used as fear tactics in these denominations. It's really quite sad.

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
When Jesus/God says "do this", we do it.
Many teachings of church denominations, pre-reformation, were created to keep people in the church out of fear they would lose their salvation. Both communion and baptism are used as fear tactics in these denominations. It's really quite sad.

If you say so. But are they sacraments?

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
That slight of hand edit was the only way your post could pretend to be adding something informative about denominations that have no ordinances or sacraments at all.

Get over yourself. I responded to the portion that I was interested in replying to, in part because I had already posted myself the information you are afraid you wont get credit for (post 9 comes before post 20. See how that works??). And I followed proper rules of grammar in doing so. If you couldnt figure out what was going on, I am sure others could.

MoreCoffee · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
...I am sure others could.

Yes, I am sure of that too. Others can figure it out. Post #7 comes before post #9. Even a child can figure that out. Post #20 is simply a reminder and a correction of the misleading style and content of post #9.

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

OK folks, the definitions of "sacrament"--and the term used--do vary between the denominations. But having noted that, we have had different people here mention that a sacrament is generally considered to be a means of grace, that it must have been instituted by Christ himself, and that the administration of the sacrament uses--as Christ used--physical matter in the administration of the sacrament.

Probably most of us would agree that it is not too controversial to say that Baptism and Communion are widely considered to meet those criteria and are considered to be sacraments of the Gospel in most Christian churches.

Are there other sacraments?

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
If you say so. But are they sacraments?

Is the term ever used in scripture?
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sacraments/

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
Is the term ever used in scripture?
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sacraments/

No, but as you are aware, there are plenty of terms that the church uses and has used that are not in scripture, either. Trinity. Millennium. Rapture, to name a few.

The word comes from the Roman description of something signified, especially in the case of emblems displayed by the military. It does not come from sacred (which is why I think that those Christians of the Baptistic tradition are making a mistake to insist upon the word ordinances instead, even if the understanding of the nature of the sacrament -- or ordinance -- is different from that in the older denominations).

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
No, but as you are aware, there are plenty of terms that the church uses and has used that are not in scripture, either. Trinity. Millennium. Rapture, to name a few.

The word comes from the Roman description of something signified, especially in the case of emblems displayed by the military. It does not come from sacred (which is why I think that those Christians of the Baptistic tradition are making a mistake to insist upon the word ordinances instead, even if the understanding of the nature of the sacrament -- or ordinance -- is different from that in the older denominations).

Correct, does that give license to the mystical elements that some denominations give to their sacraments?
Once again, I point out that the denominationalism has caused communion and baptism to be used as weapons of fear in order to hold congregants in those churches.

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
Correct, does that give license to the mystical elements that some denominations give to their sacraments?

Well, I didn't want that to be automatically part of the discussion. The non-mystical view of the sacraments (if we can put it that way) which is held by some denominations is as much a part of this as any other. Those churches (the non-mystical elements ones) do observe some of these things/rituals/ceremonies/whatever and place a lot of importance on them, too.

MoreCoffee · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
Are there other sacraments?

There are seven sacraments in use in the Catholic Church

Baptism
Confirmation
The Holy Eucharist
Marriage
Holy Orders
Reconciliation
Last Rites

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

Last rites is not a sacrament in the RCC. The Last Rites, so called, include the sacrament of Unction or Healing (formerly Extreme Unction), but also other prayers and actions. Nor is Marriage a sacrament. Matrimony is a sacrament, but marriage can occur and be recognized by the RCC as valid even without the sacrament.

But, yes, all the Catholic churches recognize seven.

Now, do they all clearly meet the rough definition we have roughly identified? What is the physical property used in Reconciliation (Confession)? did Christ ordain or establish Marriage or Matrimony? He performed his first miracle at a wedding that was already occurring. Those and others like it preceded that one.

But...Christian baptism is NOT identical to the kind of baptism the Jews knew and John the Baptist is associated with, right? The answer to *How many?* may not be a snap.

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
Well, I didn't want that to be automatically part of the discussion. The non-mystical view of the sacraments (if we can put it that way) which is held by some denominations is as much a part of this as any other. Those churches (the non-mystical elements ones) do observe some of these things/rituals/ceremonies/whatever and place a lot of importance on them, too.

They're rarely, if ever, called sacraments. That is a Latin term, made up by those in and around Rome.

MoreCoffee · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
They're rarely, if ever, called sacraments. That is a Latin term, made up by those in and around Rome.

Every Latin term, word, phase was "made up" by the people who spoke Latin. How else would they have a language of their own. Every word you use is a word "made up" by people from England, France, and other places. That's how languages come into being.

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Every Latin term, word, phase was "made up" by the people who spoke Latin. How else would they have a language of their own. Every word you use is a word "made up" by people from England, France, and other places. That's how languages come into being.

Do you find the word sacrament in the Bible?

Albion · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
They're rarely, if ever, called sacraments. That is a Latin term, made up by those in and around Rome.

Call them whatever you want, then, if this bothers you so much. The topic is the topic; and just about every church has 'em, so it is not as though this topic is peculiar only to certain denominations. Your church does baptize people, does it not??

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

Albion said:
Call them whatever you want, then, if this bothers you so much. The topic is the topic; and just about every church has 'em, so it is not as though this topic is peculiar only to certain denominations. Your church does baptize people, does it not??

Meh...follow your alchemy if you wish.

MoreCoffee · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
Do you find the word sacrament in the Bible?

Yes. Ephesians 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo

and here

Daniel 2:18 ut quaererent misericordiam a facie Dei caeli super sacramento isto et non perirent Danihel et socii eius *** ceteris sapientibus Babylonis

Daniel 2:30 mihi quoque non in sapientia quae est in me plus quam in cunctis viventibus sacramentum hoc revelatum est sed ut interpretatio regi manifesta fieret et cogitationes mentis tuae scires

Daniel 2:47 loquens ergo rex ait Daniheli vere Deus vester Deus deorum est et Dominus regum et revelans mysteria quoniam potuisti aperire sacramentum hoc

Daniel 4:9 (4:6) Balthasar princeps ariolorum quem ego scio quod spiritum deorum sanctorum habeas in te et omne sacramentum non est inpossibile tibi visiones somniorum meorum quas vidi et solutionem eorum narra

Ephesians 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo

Ephesians 3:3 quoniam secundum revelationem notum mihi factum est sacramentum sicut supra scripsi in brevi

Ephesians 3:9 et inluminare omnes quae sit dispensatio sacramenti absconditi a saeculis in Deo qui omnia creavit

Ephesians 5:32 sacramentum hoc magnum est ego autem dico in Christo et in ecclesia

Colossians 1:27 quibus voluit Deus notas facere divitias gloriae sacramenti huius in gentibus quod est Christus in vobis spes gloriae

1 Timothy 3:16 et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria

Revelation 1:20 sacramentum septem stellarum quas vidisti in dextera mea et septem candelabra aurea septem stellae angeli sunt septem ecclesiarum et candelabra septem septem ecclesiae sunt

Revelation 17:7 et dixit mihi angelus quare miraris ego tibi dicam sacramentum mulieris et bestiae quae portat eam quae habet capita septem et decem cornua

Tobit 12:7 etenim sacramentum regis abscondere bonum est opera autem Dei revelare et confiteri honorificum est

Wisdom 2:22 et nescierunt sacramenta Dei neque mercedem speraverunt iustitiae nec iudicaverunt honorem animarum sanctarum

Wisdom 6:24 quid est autem sapientia et quemadmodum facta sit referam et non abscondam a vobis sacramenta Dei sed ab initio nativitatis investigabo et ponam in lucem scientiam illius et non praeteribo veritatem

Wisdom 12:5 et filiorum necatores sine misericordia et comestores viscerum hominum devorationem et sanguinis a medio sacramento tuo

MennoSota · Nov 7, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Yes. Ephesians 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo

Latin, not the original language and a mistranslation of the Greek word, but thanks for playing. [emoji41]

MoreCoffee · Nov 7, 2018

MennoSota said:
Latin, not the original language and a mistranslation of the Greek word, but thanks for playing. [emoji41]

You will not find any English word in the originals.

The "What" and "Why" of "Sacraments"

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