Justification - Part 2

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RichWh1

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No, I am not putting emphasis on works as opposed to faith I am quoting what is in the letter of James in the bible it says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". It isn't as if works are given primacy by the letter it is just that works and faith are absolutely necessary for the faith to be living faith. Faith without works is dead is what the letter says. It is right, of course.

The mistake you are making is taking James alone and not using the rest of the Scriptures to validate your point. After all James was not the only one who wrote about justification. Paul did and so did Peter. Focus on only 1 Bible verse is not exegesis.
 

MoreCoffee

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The mistake you are making is taking James alone and not using the rest of the Scriptures to validate your point. After all James was not the only one who wrote about justification. Paul did and so did Peter. Focus on only 1 Bible verse is not exegesis.

I am not taking James' letter alone, it is part of the whole revelation given by God both in holy scripture and especially in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments and Jehovah said to obey is better than sacrifice as well as [Jehovah] has told you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justice, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God of course James' letter also points out that faith without works is dead so we have the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father through the prophets, and the apostles through James, Peter, and Paul all teaching the same thing; specifically that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. What is written in James' letter does not teach that works earn justification nor that works that are not good play any role in justification instead he teaches that faith cannot justify anybody unless and until it is alive with good works pleasing to God. But James is not the only one who teaches that, Paul too teaches it when he discusses justification and when Paul writes that a man is justified by faith apart from works the kind of faith he is talking about is faith that is active in love which is to say faith working in love which is the same kind of living faith that James wrote about. And the kind of works Paul is talking about are works done apart from faith - such as the works that the Pharisees who opposed Jesus' teaching did , things like tithing of mint, dill, cumin and boating of keeping the Law of Moses while at the same time they were busy being self righteous hypocrites. So the ones who take the letter of James by itself, as if it were some kind of outlier in the scriptures a "verse alone" as was written in another post by another contributor to this thread, are the people who keep dismissing what James' letter says as if it were somehow out of kilter with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles and the prophets and the law. It isn't out of kilter of course. It is mainstream biblical teaching and anybody who lives by faith acting in love knows this is so.
 
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Andrew

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Of course and God says a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The Apostles where following Jesus and spreading his message to a bunch of gentiles who were used to serving many gods and chanting in the streets and what have you, they didn't even know about a Holy Spirit since they believed in the new "God". So there must have been much confusion for them to understand that works alone wont save them but faith will, but what is faith to a pagan? They believe many gods... so faith is dead without works.
Faith plus works.
We dont even need to ponder it, it all comes from Gods grace and it is impossible to have the Holy Spirit and not be doing Gods will. What was all that "you fed me and took me in and clothed me" talk about?
Because the good deeds we do we do for Christ as his workmanship, Christ says love others the same way he loves us, and what we do to others we do to Christ (as a brother in need of a home)
 

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The Apostles where following Jesus and spreading his message to a bunch of gentiles who were used to serving many gods and chanting in the streets and what have you, they didn't even know about a Holy Spirit since they believed in the new "God". So there must have been much confusion for them to understand that works alone wont save them but faith will, but what is faith to a pagan? They believe many gods... so faith is dead without works.
Faith plus works.
We dont even need to ponder it, it all comes from Gods grace and it is impossible to have the Holy Spirit and not be doing Gods will. What was all that "you fed me and took me in and clothed me" talk about?
Because the good deeds we do we do for Christ as his workmanship, Christ says love others the same way he loves us, and what we do to others we do to Christ (as a brother in need of a home)

I'm not so sure that James was writing to pagans. He starts his letter like this:
James 1:1 James, a servant of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ, sends greetings to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations.
 

Andrew

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I'm not so sure that James was writing to pagans. He starts his letter like this:
James 1:1 James, a servant of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ, sends greetings to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations.
Well then maybe he was reminding them to be doers of the Law in faith and grace
 

MoreCoffee

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Well then maybe he was reminding them to be doers of the Law in faith and grace

The Israelites always had faith and knew that faith was necessary to please God. But some among them, like the Pharisees who opposed Jesus, were hypocrite. That is true of Christians today too. Christians know that faith is necessary to be pleasing to God. But some among Christians are hypocrites. Saint James wrote to the twelve tribes reminding them that one must be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only and he went on to explain that praying for people and wishing them well when they are in need but doing nothing to alleviate their distress is no good. He taught his readers that being like that is to have "faith without works" that is to have something that does nothing and faith like that cannot save so he went on to explain that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

Arsenios

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I'm a sinner...
I need to repent...
God gives me the ability to repent by virtue of Christ in me.

Why do you need to repent?

Do you not have Christ in you?
Are you not fully Justified?
Is there anything more sanctified than Christ IN you?

What is your goal, your purpose, in repenting from sin?

Or...

Why does God have you repenting now?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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You have made it very clear that works is clearly after accepting faith
and go hand to hand as faith encourages and produces good works.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that out of works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.

There is no way to parse this sentence except to say that a man is Justified out of his works, and it is peerfectly consonant with the fact that it is God Who Justifies a man...

As a simple matter of fact, (and this is perhaps a fact outside the experience of most here,) works and not faith are the basis on which God Justifies a person... A person can have no faith in God whatsoever, can deny the very existence of God, and yet be utterly committed to what is good and opposed to what is evil, and God will Justify that person... And that fact of existence is as foreign to many here as is the de-nuclearization of North and South Korea under the Trump Presidency...

And to this it must be added, the HIGHER Gifts are attained ONLY AFTER ENTRY INTO Christ... eg Only after consciously and willfully being discipled in the Faith which Christ disciples to His Apostles...

eg Repentance from Sin is available to all...
Gifts of Healing is only for some...
Prophesy is only to a few...

etc etc...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Either Scripture comparison is correct or it isn’t.

The only way to actually PROVE Scripture is in your own flesh...

Christ proved it by ascending the Cross for us sinners...

Christians follow Christ...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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So you repent and believe and accept justification by faith through grace and not by works alone but only through the saved/justified spirit "the Holy Spirit" in you is it possible to share your righteous works of charity seen good in Gods eyes?

"This is my beloved son of whom I am well pleased"

The crux is that we disagree on the sequencing...

For us, Justification follows our Repentance in response to the Call of the Gospel unto Repentance...

For others, the Call to Repentance is ignored, and Justification is the Beginning of Life in Christ...

So that for us, Repentance is unto Justification...

For them, Justification is unto Repentance...

The first is the Call of God to ALL mankind unto Repentance unto Justification and its Salvation...

The second is God choosing only His Elect by Justifying them so they can repent to His Glory,
and the rest can sizzle in hell as they oh so justly deserve... ( Can you hear me Menno?)

So the issue is important...

Most of America is walking away from Christianity over this issue...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Not everyone, DHoffman. There is a big butt, added by some.

Sometimes you just have to let it go, Menno...
Overcoming Obsession is a good thing...
Your "Big Butt" Obsession kinda stinks...

Jes' sayin'!! :):)

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Why do you need to repent?

Do you not have Christ in you?
Are you not fully Justified?
Is there anything more sanctified than Christ IN you?

What is your goal, your purpose, in repenting from sin?

Or...

Why does God have you repenting now?

Arsenios
All the saints (that is all who have been redeemed) have need of turning from sin toward God. Read about the remarkable repentance of the believers in Thessalonica found in 1 Thessalonians 1. These believers were not commended for their great repentance while still pagans. They were commended for their repentance as saints of God.
We, who are redeemed, have a position before God that is found holy...in Christ, but we still live in this body of sin as corrupted sinners. God is continually sanctifying us and making us in His image. He is continually confronting our natural tendency to control our destiny and do our own bidding rather than our Father's bidding. We are continually evaluating and repenting when necessary. Such is the life of the saint who lives in this body of sin.
Read Romans 7 & 8 if this is confusing to you.
 

Arsenios

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What? No!

YUP... The Gospel is proven in your own flesh...

YOU are to MORTIFY your fleshy members...

You are to SUBJUGATE your flesh so that it no longer rules your spirit,
but your spirit in obedience to the Holy Spirit rules your flesh...

Your Old Man needs to be overcome and put to death...
The Old Man is ruled by fear of pain and death and love of the flesh...
Christians are ruled by the Love of God in obedience to Christ...

No IFs, ANDs or BUTs!!! :)

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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YUP... The Gospel is proven in your own flesh...

YOU are to MORTIFY your fleshy members...

You are to SUBJUGATE your flesh so that it no longer rules your spirit,
but your spirit in obedience to the Holy Spirit rules your flesh...

Your Old Man needs to be overcome and put to death...
The Old Man is ruled by fear of pain and death and love of the flesh...
Christians are ruled by the Love of God in obedience to Christ...

No IFs, ANDs or BUTs!!! :)

Arsenios
Sanctification, not Justification. Perhaps it's hard for you to grasp the difference.
 

Arsenios

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All the saints (that is all who have been redeemed) have need of turning from sin toward God. Read about the remarkable repentance of the believers in Thessalonica found in 1 Thessalonians 1. These believers were not commended for their great repentance while still pagans. They were commended for their repentance as saints of God.
We, who are redeemed, have a position before God that is found holy...in Christ, but we still live in this body of sin as corrupted sinners. God is continually sanctifying us and making us in His image. He is continually confronting our natural tendency to control our destiny and do our own bidding rather than our Father's bidding. We are continually evaluating and repenting when necessary. Such is the life of the saint who lives in this body of sin.
Read Romans 7 & 8 if this is confusing to you.

Why are YOU repenting?

I mean, I get mad and flip off a bad driver on the road and yell unseemly things at her... Perhaps suggesting certain facts not necessarily in evidence about her ancestors or thereabouts...

Now in your view, I am in a POSITION of Holiness before God...
And I have just WALKED outside this POSITION... Yes?

So what do I now need to do and why?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Sanctification, not Justification. Perhaps it's hard for you to grasp the difference.

So which which is which?

Saying so don't make it so...

Gotta show so...

Perhaps it's hard for you to show the difference???

Arsenios
 

RichWh1

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So which which is which?

Saying so don't make it so...

Gotta show so...

Perhaps it's hard for you to show the difference???

Arsenios

Justification is a one time act. Sanctification is a progressive process
So I would assume that justification comes first.



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Arsenios

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Justification is a one time act.

If we are made totally right with God instantly once for all time, then we cannot sin...

Because sin is not right with God...

This Faith is an ongoing and lifetime struggle in this fallen human condition...

That struggle is willful...

God works on us through our struggle...

But what I was asking Menno was to show HOW my post was about Sanctificaton and not Justification...

I mean, when we are Baptized INTO Christ, we are Saved, we are Justified, and we are Sanctified...

And then we have our first secular/carnal thought after that event...

And the struggle is engaged...

One is never more pure nor more holy than when one emerges from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration...

Not all retain it...

But keeping that purity and sanctity is the Path of Salvation after Baptism...

And it is discipled by the Church...

Arsenios
 

RichWh1

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Arsenios

Being justified does not mean that we are now sinless.
Sin has no bearing on our justification since we are justified by our faith.
We remain sinners after justification takes place, sanctification comes as a result of justification.
Our faith justifies us; our works sanctify us.




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