Sinless Mary

MoreCoffee said:

You may not know, I do know. You may not accept the teaching of the Catholic Church but I do.

Click to expand...

I imagine she was sinless MC

Andrew said:

Even if she were sinless what difference does it make?

Click to expand...

Salvation...

What does Christ prescribe for our Salvation?

He prescribes our obedience that we recover from the disobedience of Adam... Matt 28:20

He prescribes purity of heart, which is why He sent John as His Forerunner so as to prepare His Way in the human soul, preaching the baptism of repentance in preparation for the coming of Christ which is at hand...

The Blessed Virgin is the original sinless one among those fallen in Adam, and was so to the degree that she conceived Christ God into flesh in her womb...

THAT level of purity is far beyond anything we can imagine...

She is the TYPOS of purity for the birth of Christ IN us...

And she is the TYPOS of the Church that births us in Baptism into Christ...

As we are Brethren in Christ with Christ, she is our Mother as well, who gave us Life in her Waters of Regeneration...

Christ is first-born from the dead that He should have many Brethren...

His Brethren, you see, have Her now as their Mother too...

For as God is our Father, so is His Mother our Mother, the Ekklesia...

Her purity set the standard for entry into Christ in Baptism...

For as many as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ...

The purity of the Mother of our Lord is the Gold Standard of purity for Life in Christ...

And THAT, my Brother, is the difference it makes...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Salvation...

What does Christ prescribe for our Salvation?

He prescribes our obedience that we recover from the disobedience of Adam... Matt 28:20

He prescribes purity of heart, which is why He sent John as His Forerunner so as to prepare His Way in the human soul, preaching the baptism of repentance in preparation for the coming of Christ which is at hand...

The Blessed Virgin is the original sinless one among those fallen in Adam, and was so to the degree that she conceived Christ God into flesh in her womb...

THAT level of purity is far beyond anything we can imagine...

She is the TYPOS of purity for the birth of Christ IN us...

And she is the TYPOS of the Church that births us in Baptism into Christ...

As we are Brethren in Christ with Christ, she is our Mother as well, who gave us Life in her Waters of Regeneration...

Christ is first-born from the dead that He should have many Brethren...

His Brethren, you see, have Her now as their Mother too...

For as God is our Father, so is His Mother our Mother, the Ekklesia...

Her purity set the standard for entry into Christ in Baptism...

For as many as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ...

The purity of the Mother of our Lord is the Gold Standard of purity for Life in Christ...

And THAT, my Brother, is the difference it makes...


Arsenios

Click to expand...

So we should worship Mary for our salvation?
You are obviously praising her as I believe we all should, she deserves honor and we are very blessed and thankful for her role for conceiving our Savior and her Savior likewise. I just don't understand how worshipping Blesses Mary will save us... Maybe you didn't mean to say that, or did you? I recognize her and praise her but how can I worship her? I certainly don't want to end up in hell, do I need to do the rosary several times a day? Will that get me into Heaven?
Geez this is confusion all over again. I know that when I pray the Hail Mary I do feel a sense of motherly comfort so like I said, I definitely recognise her as a Holy Saint and the only one I pray to.

Again, in the end, is my salvation determined by my worshipping Mary aside from Faith and acceptance of our Lord Jesus as my Savior?

Andrew said:

So we should worship Mary for our salvation?

Click to expand...

We should not worship Blessed Mary but like we do with the holy apostles and all the holy saints we ought to listen to Blessed Mary, see her example, and follow it.

MoreCoffee said:

We should not worship Blessed Mary but like we do with the holy apostles and all the holy saints we ought to listen to Blessed Mary, see her example, and follow it.

Click to expand...

What did Mary write down for us so we might "listen" to her?
All you have is people, distanced by hundreds of years, making non-verifiable claims about Mary.
You stake your faith upon these unverifiable claims as though they were fact. But, the truth is...they are fiction. They are myths created by your denomination. Believe them if that is the kool-aid that quenches your thirst, but don't pass your myths off as fact to the rest of us.

MennoSota said:

What did Mary write down for us so we might "listen" to her?

Click to expand...

Holy Mary wrote as much as the Lord, her Son, Jesus Christ.

MoreCoffee said:

Holy Mary wrote as much as the Lord, her Son, Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

That's false. God wrote and inspired all scripture (66 books). God the Son is much, much higher than his earthly mom.

MoreCoffee said:

We should not worship Blessed Mary but like we do with the holy apostles and all the holy saints we ought to listen to Blessed Mary, see her example, and follow it.

Click to expand...

Yup.

MennoSota said:

That's false. God wrote and inspired all scripture (66 books). God the Son is much, much higher than his earthly mom.

Click to expand...

The Lord, Jesus Christ, did not write a word that is in the holy scriptures. Others wrote. Saint Luke wrote a gospel, same goes for saints Matthew and Mark. Saint John also wrote a gospel but his is of a very different kind. Saint Paul wrote letters as did saints Peter, James, and Jude. Yet the Lord himself penned not one word that we have presented verbatim in the holy scriptures. And while it is true that the Lord Jesus Christ did say many things that are allegedly recorded in the gospels and letters exactly as he spoke them he himself did not write any of the gospels. So I must differ from you on this matter. You have taken a position that, while understandable, is not factual insofar as what the Lord himself wrote is precisely nothing.

MennoSota said:

That's false. God wrote and inspired all scripture (66 books). God the Son is much, much higher than his earthly mom.

Click to expand...

Good point. Since Jesus is fully God (and also fully man) what JESUS (the God-man) does ergo GOD does. Solid point.

Of course, it's EXACTLY the same point in holding that Mary is the Mother of God, the Matre Dei, the Theotokos. She bore Jesus and ergo God.

YUP. Such is the two inseparable natures of Jesus. Mysterious.... entirely beyond our puny minds to even begin to comprehend, but as you noted, true.

Josiah said:

Yup.

Click to expand...

It is a good thing to agree together.

MoreCoffee said:

The Lord, Jesus Christ, did not write a word that is in the holy scriptures. Others wrote. Saint Luke wrote a gospel, same goes for saints Matthew and Mark. Saint John also wrote a gospel but his is of a very different kind. Saint Paul wrote letters as did saints Peter, James, and Jude. Yet the Lord himself penned not one word that we have presented verbatim in the holy scriptures. And while it is true that the Lord Jesus Christ did say many things that are allegedly recorded in the gospels and letters exactly as he spoke them he himself did not write any of the gospels. So I must differ from you on this matter. You have taken a position that, while understandable, is not factual insofar as what the Lord himself wrote is precisely nothing.

Click to expand...

Is Jesus God? Did God not speak and humans wrote as God directed?
Jesus is far, far higher than Mary.
The book of Hebrews outlines how Jesus is higher than all things. Please note that Mary is only mentioned in a few short passages and no more. She fulfilled her role in giving birth to God in human flesh. She cared and nutured as any flawed mother can do. God was pleased with her actions and blessed her for it. That's the extent of her role. Mary was very likely illiterate, which explains why she treasured things in her heart rather than on paper.

MennoSota said:

Is Jesus God?

Click to expand...

Yes, Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. God incarnate. Yet Jesus Christ, the Lord, did not write any parts of holy scripture. You could point to the ten commandments on the tablets of stone that are said to be written by the finger of God in the books of Moses. But since Jesus had not yet been revealed it would be a bit of a slight of hand to say that Jesus, the man who walked the Earth, wrote the ten commandments with his flesh finger.

Did God not speak and humans wrote as God directed?

Click to expand...

Yes, God did inspire human beings (sometimes by direct speech to them) to write the holy scriptures but isn't that the very thing I have already said; specifically, that God did not write the holy scriptures, people did.

I am not arguing that God did not inspire the writing of the holy scriptures, on the contrary I affirm that he did, but rather I am affirming that people wrote the holy scriptures under inspiration from God. People did it. God inspired it. The Lord, Jesus Christ, did not write any of the new testament scriptures. He inspired them all and wrote none with his own earthly hand.

Jesus is far, far higher than Mary.

Click to expand...

The Lord, Jesus Christ is God so he is more than "far far higher than Blessed Mary" He is infinitely higher and greater and more glorious and purer and is in every way greater and better than is the Blessed virgin Mary because Blessed Mary is a creature and not the creator.

The book of Hebrews outlines how Jesus is higher than all things. Please note that Mary is only mentioned in a few short passages and no more. She fulfilled her role in giving birth to God in human flesh. She cared and nutured as any flawed [caring and loving] mother can do. God was pleased with her actions and blessed her for it. That's the extent of her role. Mary was very likely illiterate

Click to expand...

As far as I know you are illiterate in ancient Hebrew as am I yet God is pleased to be gentle and kind to us and to allow the faithful to participate in his work of saving the elect. Blessed Mary's role is more than the things you mention because her role is recorded in holy scripture for our instruction as, indeed, are all the things in scripture recorded for our instruction.

, which explains why she treasured things in her heart rather than on paper.

Click to expand...

I imagine that Blessed Mary treasured many things in her heart and who is to say that she may not also have treasured things on paper. If she did then none of the paper she used is still with us today, perhaps some of the words she treasured are. There is evidence, albeit only indirect, that Blessed Mary was a principle source for saint Luke's holy gospel.

Andrew said:

So we should worship Mary for our salvation?

Click to expand...

No... Why would you want to think that?

You are obviously praising her as I believe we all should, she deserves honor and we are very blessed and thankful for her role for conceiving our Savior and her Savior likewise.

Click to expand...

Well, the prayers of the Righteous avail much, and of the Righteous, She is more righteous than anyone else, ever...

But as the Mother of Christ, She is also our Mother...
For we are Christ's Brethren...
And in Jewish Royalty, the Mother of the King SAT at the right hand of the King...
So that her "position" is foreshadowed by the exalted position of the worldly King under the Levitical Law...
As the New Eve, She has the authority to sit at the Right Hand of the New Adam Who is God...
And we have the Joy to CALL Her Blessed and

I just don't understand how worshipping Blessed Mary will save us...

Click to expand...

We extoll Her and love her as the Mother of our Lord God and as our own Mother...

Maybe you didn't mean to say that, or did you?

Click to expand...

We do not worship Her as God, but as the Mother of our God and Lord and Savior glorify Her beyond all the Saints Glorified by God...

This is the one human being in all Creation who gave birth to God our Savior...

Just try to love her as Jesus loves her...

No other woman in all Creation has EVER given birth to God...

I recognize her and praise her but how can I worship her?

Click to expand...

Why worship her?

I certainly don't want to end up in hell, do I need to do the rosary several times a day? Will that get me into Heaven?
Geez this is confusion all over again. I know that when I pray the Hail Mary I do feel a sense of motherly comfort so like I said, I definitely recognise her as a Holy Saint and the only one I pray to.

Again, in the end, is my salvation determined by my worshipping Mary aside from Faith and acceptance of our Lord Jesus as my Savior?

Click to expand...

You seem a little stuck on worship and avoiding hell...

Just love her...

She is the Best!


Arsenios

MennoSota said:

Mary was very likely illiterate, which explains why she treasured things in her heart rather than on paper.

Click to expand...

A little conjecture never hurt anyone, eh?

ImaginaryDay2 said:

A little conjecture never hurt anyone, eh?

Click to expand...

How many women, especially poor women living in rural backwater areas of Palestine, were educated and literate in 0 CE?

ImaginaryDay2 said:

A little conjecture never hurt anyone, eh?

Click to expand...

My Name-Saint, Arsenius the Great, after incurring the wrath of the two kings he had tutored as teens, and fleeing to the Egyptian desert, was discipled there as a monk by a monk named John the Dwarf... Now John could not read nor could he write, but he had memorized most of Scripture and all the Psalms... And people asked Arsenius: "Why would you, a man of Greek and Latin writings, choose a hunch-backed little dwarf like John who can neither read nor write to be your teacher in the Faith?"

So he replied: "It is true that I have read all the books written in Latin and Greek, and have taught them to my students... It is also true that Abba John can neither read nor write... But Abba John directs a whole orchestra of prayer of which I can play not so much as even one note..."

From John the Dwarf St. Arsenius harvested the Gift of Tears and lived in the Desert to 100 years of age...


Arsenios

MennoSota said:

How many women, especially poor women living in rural backwater areas of Palestine, were educated and literate in 0 CE?

Click to expand...

More conjecture?

Historical records indicate she was not of poverty stricken parents nor the backwaters of Palestine...

Does Palestine even have backwaters??

Sand dunes maybe?


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

More conjecture?

Historical records indicate she was not of poverty stricken parents nor the backwaters of Palestine...

Does Palestine even have backwaters??

Sand dunes maybe?


Arsenios

Click to expand...

They can't even find the town of Nazareth in Galilee. It was likely smaller than most church parking lots. Second, women were rarely educated in Jewish culture.
The conjecture is squarely on people who think Mary was highly educated and literate.