Philippians 2:12 ?

DHoffmann said:

So they are saved but if they fall back then they were never saved? Or is it saying that those who became enlightened and such and such... could not fall away? Or both?
It seems like those who fall away or then against Christ and then are they crucifying him being an enemy.

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How he explained it is that there are many people who call themselves Christians and attend Church regularly. They were baptized and served faithfully. However, deep down they were just going through the motions for one reason or the other.

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Imalive said:

Who that hypocrit is who came up w false grace? Michael Brown. The Bible calls it lewdness.
Oh he calls it hypergrace.
https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...090-a-personal-word-to-my-hyper-grace-friends

This is a response of a hyper grace teacher, this is hypergrace:

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/escapetoreality.org/2016/05/04/michael-brown-grace-controversy/amp/

Why he wants to befriend em beats me btw. That's the end time delusion.

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charisma news?? really?
Have you seen the number of false teachers, wacky practices, and heresies they not only give space to, but even endorse?? Oy!
I dont know about the second guy...the first guy, Brown, I've heard a few things from, some good, some not so much, but I think he also endorses, or at least gives tacit approval, to the NAR and some of their associates, so I wouldnt put alot of faith in his opinions on false teaching.
I dont need either guys opinion, though, let them debate if they want to, I have the bible, in a trustworthy version, and I thank God for it, and His grace to preserve it, give it, and teach it.

meluckycharms said:

A Baptist pastor once referenced hebrews 6 and explained to me that people who back slide were never truly saved to begin with.

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So what happened when you were done laughing? I hope you told him he's full of bulloney and showed him the gospel of the grace and truth of God.

DHoffmann said:

So they are saved but if they fall back then they were never saved? Or is it saying that those who became enlightened and such and such... could not fall away? Or both?
It seems like those who fall away or then against Christ and then are they crucifying him being an enemy.

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>>You tell a kid, 'Here's a pile of cookies. You may eat a whole bunch.
But over here is another cookie that you may not eat. It's poison.
•Kid: But I want that cookie.
>>Please dont eat that one, it's poison, it will be harmful. Okay?
• Okay.

Two minutes later, kid is eating the poison cookie.
>>What are you doing?
•Eating a cookie.
>> The poison one?
•Yes
>>Why?
•Dunno ... I thought it would be good?

That's what it's like, when you tell ppl, 'Here's a whole book of scripture...you may read a whole bunch. But dont just pluck a couple of verses out, and read them isolated...out of context...it will be harmful. Okay?
• Okay.

Two minutes later, they're reading 3 and only 3 verses from Hebrews6, and causing harm, telling ppl they can lose their salvation.

>>What are you doing?
• Reading. 3 verses.
>>Why?
•Dunno. Thought it'd be good.
>>No, dont do that. Back up...start at 5:12 at least, then read forward, but please dont stop at 6:6 . Please keep reading at least til verse9, but preferrably to the end of the chapter, okay?
•Okay.

Two days later, they're reading the same 3 verses again, and insisting they can lose their salvation.
>>Why?
•Dunno. I thought it would be good.
>>No...not good. Dont do that. (*smh)

It's like the kid insisting on going after the poison cookie!

Btw, for the false teachers that say that verses 6:4-6 say you can lose your salvation....
They must also teach that you can never be forgiven again...twice lost, always lost...for according to their own twisted version of the passage, it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to be saved again.

Thank God that isnt true. Thank you, Jesus!

Snerfle said:

charisma news?? really?


So what happened when you were done laughing? I hope you told him he's full of bulloney and showed him the gospel of the grace and truth of God.

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I politely told him that I know many atheists who stated that when they were Christian children, just like Santa, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy, they truly believed in God and truly believed they were saved. However, as they grew older, they could no longer believe it so they left the Church. Then I asked him, how do you know you are "truly saved" and not like them?

He just smirked at me and told me that he doesn't know.

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meluckycharms said:

I politely told him that I know many atheists who stated that when they were Christian children, just like Santa, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy, they truly believed in God and truly believed they were saved. However, as they grew older, they could no longer believe it so they left the Church. Then I asked him, how do you know you are "truly saved" and not like them?

He just smirked at me and told me that he doesn't know.

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That's so sad. You should give him, and all those atheists you know, the gospel, and pray for them to believe it, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Snerfle said:

charisma news?? really?
Have you seen the number of false teachers, wacky practices, and heresies they not only give space to, but even endorse?? Oy!
I dont know about the second guy...the first guy, Brown, I've heard a few things from, some good, some not so much, but I think he also endorses, or at least gives tacit approval, to the NAR and some of their associates, so I wouldnt put alot of faith in his opinions on false teaching.
I dont need either guys opinion, though, let them debate if they want to, I have the bible, in a trustworthy version, and I thank God for it, and His grace to preserve it, give it, and teach it.

So what happened when you were done laughing? I hope you told him he's full of bulloney and showed him the gospel of the grace and truth of God.


>>You tell a kid, 'Here's a pile of cookies. You may eat a whole bunch.
But over here is another cookie that you may not eat. It's poison.
•Kid: But I want that cookie.
>>Please dont eat that one, it's poison, it will be harmful. Okay?
• Okay.

Two minutes later, kid is eating the poison cookie.
>>What are you doing?
•Eating a cookie.
>> The poison one?
•Yes
>>Why?
•Dunno ... I thought it would be good?

That's what it's like, when you tell ppl, 'Here's a whole book of scripture...you may read a whole bunch. But dont just pluck a couple of verses out, and read them isolated...out of context...it will be harmful. Okay?
• Okay.

Two minutes later, they're reading 3 and only 3 verses from Hebrews6, and causing harm, telling ppl they can lose their salvation.

>>What are you doing?
• Reading. 3 verses.
>>Why?
•Dunno. Thought it'd be good.
>>No, dont do that. Back up...start at 5:12 at least, then read forward, but please dont stop at 6:6 . Please keep reading at least til verse9, but preferrably to the end of the chapter, okay?
•Okay.

Two days later, they're reading the same 3 verses again, and insisting they can lose their salvation.
>>Why?
•Dunno. I thought it would be good.
>>No...not good. Dont do that. (*smh)

It's like the kid insisting on going after the poison cookie!

Btw, for the false teachers that say that verses 6:4-6 say you can lose your salvation....
They must also teach that you can never be forgiven again...twice lost, always lost...for according to their own twisted version of the passage, it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to be saved again.

Thank God that isnt true. Thank you, Jesus!

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Really? You compare an isolated verse from the Bible with poison? Rat poison is 95 percent good and 5 percent false or something otherwise they dont take it.
If the devil plucks a verse out of context and adds a lie you have to say: it is written.
If you refuse to read anything cause I listen to false teachers, I think it's handier to discuss it w someone else or maybe just let it go. I cannot make clear to you what I mean. I tried for a year now. You remind me of another guy. Here this is an awesome testimony how Michael Brown got saved. No I dont listen to anyone my church has not approved of, he says. He only listened to the approved ones, like Creflo Dollar. Okay, never mind.

Imalive said:

Really? You compare an isolated verse from the Bible with poison? Rat poison is 95 percent good and 5 percent false or something otherwise they dont take it.
If the devil plucks a verse out of context and adds a lie you have to say: it is written.

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Thank you for agreeing with me , you made my point.
The devil likes to take a snippet here, pluck a text there, twist the meaning and use it like poison, causing ppl to fear and doubt their salvation.
The counter is to show God's Word of Truth in context ... It is written. God loves us and wants us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and know we are saved. :cheer:

The devil tries to use God's own Word against God and against God's ppl, trying to snatch us out of God's hand and doubt our salvation, but God gave us His Word to have assurance of salvation.
God bless you today. :hug2:

Snerfle said:

Thank you for agreeing with me , you made my point.
The devil likes to take a snippet here, pluck a text there, twist the meaning and use it like poison, causing ppl to fear and doubt their salvation.
The counter is to show God's Word of Truth in context ... It is written. God loves us and wants us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and know we are saved. :cheer:

The devil tries to use God's own Word against God and against God's ppl, trying to snatch us out of God's hand and doubt our salvation, but God gave us His Word to have assurance of salvation.
God bless you today. :hug2:

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Thats actually the first answer I gave to Tigger. Read it in context. Phillippians 1 says he's sure God will complete in you what He started. I'm not saying you can lose your salvation, but I would say that to the friend of your buddy. You thought it was weird that I thought he wasnt even saved.
Anyways what Michael Brown preaches against is hypergrace, what Joseph Prince etc. preach, that you dont have to confess your sins and that the Holy Spirit doesnt convict christians of sin.

Imalive said:

Really? You compare an isolated verse from the Bible with poison? Rat poison is 95 percent good and 5 percent false or something otherwise they dont take it.
If the devil plucks a verse out of context and adds a lie you have to say: it is written.
If you refuse to read anything cause I listen to false teachers, I think it's handier to discuss it w someone else or maybe just let it go. I cannot make clear to you what I mean. I tried for a year now. You remind me of another guy. Here this is an awesome testimony how Michael Brown got saved. No I dont listen to anyone my church has not approved of, he says. He only listened to the approved ones, like Creflo Dollar. Okay, never mind.

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You added to your post after I quoted and replied to it.

(And what are approved ones? I dont even know what you're talking about, approved ones?) ... Anyway...

I do read your posts, why do you accuse me of not? Of course I do.
I've been reading what youve said for a year, and it's mind-boggling how many times you've tried to tell me we can lose our salvation or get us to doubt it.
Ive tried for a year to get you to have ASSURANCE of salvation, to stop believing you can lose it, to not listen to false teachers and false practices like the RCdenom and tv 'preachers and movements' .... So we can rejoice TOGETHER in our osas salvation in Jesus, so we can pray together, read His Word together, minister His Word of grace and salvation to others together.

Ive asked for these things with you alot.

You made a decision a few months back, you said you werent interested in me, you had 'other things' in mind. Okay I accepted that, and said I want you to be happy, with whoever or whatever, and that I wouldnt turn my back on you, and would always be your friend if you wanted one.

I dont want to fight with you, and never did.
I kept trying to support you and be on your side, and hoped you'd be on mine.

But I wont compromise the gospel, going back to works-righteousness or religious oppression,..... and the bible says to contend for the faith and expose false teaching, and to try to help others that may be caught in it, and to speak the truth in love, and let brotherly (sisterly :disgonbegood: ) love continue.

That's all I've tried to do with you...I want us to get along and support and encourage each other and be on the same team.

Snerfle said:

You added to your post after I quoted and replied to it.

(And what are approved ones? I dont even know what you're talking about, approved ones?) ... Anyway...

I do read your posts, why do you accuse me of not? Of course I do.
I've been reading what youve said for a year, and it's mind-boggling how many times you've tried to tell me we can lose our salvation or get us to doubt it.
Ive tried for a year to get you to have ASSURANCE of salvation, to stop believing you can lose it, to not listen to false teachers and false practices like the RCdenom and tv 'preachers and movements' .... So we can rejoice TOGETHER in our osas salvation in Jesus, so we can pray together, read His Word together, minister His Word of grace and salvation to others together.

Ive asked for these things with you alot.

You made a decision a few months back, you said you werent interested in me, you had 'other things' in mind. Okay I accepted that, and said I want you to be happy, with whoever or whatever, and that I wouldnt turn my back on you, and would always be your friend if you wanted one.

I dont want to fight with you, and never did.
I kept trying to support you and be on your side, and hoped you'd be on mine.

But I wont compromise the gospel, going back to works-righteousness or religious oppression,..... and the bible says to contend for the faith and expose false teaching, and to try to help others that may be caught in it, and to speak the truth in love, and let brotherly (sisterly :disgonbegood: ) love continue.

That's all I've tried to do with you...I want us to get along and support and encourage each other and be on the same team.

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I do not listen to false teachers. You refuse to read what I link from them, so then it gets hard to explain. I do not doubt my salvation. I just point out that its false to tell everyone, even ppl blatantly sinning, that theyre always saved. And I'm glad that my pastor said to me: do you want to risk your salvation? when it was necessary.

-

Snerfle said:

charisma news??
Btw, for the false teachers that say that verses 6:4-6 say you can lose your salvation....
They must also teach that you can never be forgiven again...twice lost, always lost...for according to their own twisted version of the passage, it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to be saved again.

Thank God that isnt true. Thank you, Jesus!

Click to expand...

That actually wasn't what I was stating. I brought up hebrews because the pastor used it to show that it is "impossible for someone who has been enlightened" to fall away. He then explained that those who apostasy were never truly saved to begin with. They were just giving lip service.

My question for you then is simply what comes of those who apostasy? Christians who no longer believe in God or Jesus? Perhaps I am wrong but it seems to me that there are only three options.

1. The apostate is still saved regardless of their denial (John 10:29-30).

2. They were never saved and were only pretending to believe (Matthew 13: 24-30).

3. At one time they were saved and lost their salvation. (James 5: 19-20, Revelation 22:19).

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Snerfle said:

Thank you for agreeing with me , you made my point.
The devil likes to take a snippet here, pluck a text there, twist the meaning and use it like poison, causing ppl to fear and doubt their salvation.
The counter is to show God's Word of Truth in context ... It is written. God loves us and wants us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and know we are saved. :cheer:

The devil tries to use God's own Word against God and against God's ppl, trying to snatch us out of God's hand and doubt our salvation, but God gave us His Word to have assurance of salvation.
God bless you today. :hug2:

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Honest question, with hundreds of denominations, who is right?

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Snerfle said:

The devil tries to use God's own Word against God and against God's ppl, trying to snatch us out of God's hand and doubt our salvation, but God gave us His Word to have assurance of salvation.
God bless you today. :hug2:

Click to expand...

Ok...i am confused. I was under the assumption that you supported the doctrine of "once saved always saved". Unless you are suggesting that the devil's attempts are in vain.

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Snerfle said:

You added to your post after I quoted and replied to it.

(And what are approved ones? I dont even know what you're talking about, approved ones?) ... Anyway...

I do read your posts, why do you accuse me of not? Of course I do.
I've been reading what youve said for a year, and it's mind-boggling how many times you've tried to tell me we can lose our salvation or get us to doubt it.
Ive tried for a year to get you to have ASSURANCE of salvation, to stop believing you can lose it, to not listen to false teachers and false practices like the RCdenom and tv 'preachers and movements' .... So we can rejoice TOGETHER in our osas salvation in Jesus, so we can pray together, read His Word together, minister His Word of grace and salvation to others together.

Ive asked for these things with you alot.

You made a decision a few months back, you said you werent interested in me, you had 'other things' in mind. Okay I accepted that, and said I want you to be happy, with whoever or whatever, and that I wouldnt turn my back on you, and would always be your friend if you wanted one.

I dont want to fight with you, and never did.
I kept trying to support you and be on your side, and hoped you'd be on mine.

But I wont compromise the gospel, going back to works-righteousness or religious oppression,..... and the bible says to contend for the faith and expose false teaching, and to try to help others that may be caught in it, and to speak the truth in love, and let brotherly (sisterly :disgonbegood: ) love continue.

That's all I've tried to do with you...I want us to get along and support and encourage each other and be on the same team.

Click to expand...

Can someone loose their salvation if they are no longer confident in their salvation. [emoji6] Ok... now I am just being facetious.

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meluckycharms said:

That actually wasn't what I was stating. I brought up hebrews because the pastor used it to show that it is "impossible for someone who has been enlightened" to fall away. He then explained that those who apostasy were never truly saved to begin with. They were just giving lip service.

My question for you then is simply what comes of those who apostasy? Christians who no longer believe in God or Jesus? Perhaps I am wrong but it seems to me that there are only three options.

1. The apostate is still saved regardless of their denial (John 10:29-30).

2. They were never saved and were only pretending to believe (Matthew 13: 24-30).

3. At one time they were saved and lost their salvation. (James 5: 19-20, Revelation 22:19).

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I would say 3, but on the other hand Paul says the ones who left werent from us, otherwise they had stayed. Jesus says I never knew you, not: first I knew you and then not. That's not about ppl who believed as a kid and then started using their brain too much btw. You see those come back.
Sower: some believe for a while, but they have no root.

meluckycharms said:

That actually wasn't what I was stating. I brought up hebrews because the pastor used it to show that it is "impossible for someone who has been enlightened" to fall away. He then explained that those who apostasy were never truly saved to begin with. They were just giving lip service.

My question for you then is simply what comes of those who apostasy? Christians who no longer believe in God or Jesus? Perhaps I am wrong but it seems to me that there are only three options.

1. The apostate is still saved regardless of their denial (John 10:29-30).

2. They were never saved and were only pretending to believe (Matthew 13: 24-30).

3. At one time they were saved and lost their salvation. (James 5: 19-20, Revelation 22:19).

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A response to the "Once Saved Always Saved" conjecture: http://christianityhaven.com/showth...-TULIP-and-a-Distinctive-of-Calvinism [/SIZE]


I don't think this thread is about the uber-Calvinist theory of OSAS, but my response would be:
GOSPEL: God will never let go of our hand.
LAW: Don't let go of God's hand.

But again, see the post here linked.



Back to the topic here....



- Josiah

meluckycharms said:

Can someone loose their salvation if they are no longer confident in their salvation. [emoji6] Ok... now I am just being facetious.

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thats totally me tho. I've always felt unworthy, even now
Its why I ask so many questions here, I have good days and bad days, but my good days have been shy lately... and I have had the flue and have been missing church and working overtime at work through it all.
Can someone feel convicted to the point of insecurity? Im not perfect but I have awful feelings of despair and (yikes) impending doom of hell in the after life.... its one of those days

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DHoffmann said:

thats totally me tho. I've always felt unworthy, even now
Its why I ask so many questions here, I have good days and bad days, but my good days have been shy lately... and I have had the flue and have been missing church and working overtime at work through it all.
Can someone feel convicted to the point of insecurity? Im not perfect but I have awful feelings of despair and (yikes) impending doom of hell in the after life.... its one of those days

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I once got a personal Word from God by a guy who gave words and prophecies. It was years ago. I was just saved. I had dreams that Jesus came over and chatted to everyone and totally ignored me. LOL the devil is so nasty. What a jerk it is. Anyways 1 John little children I write you this that you know your sins are forgiven.
But I got a personal Word. He said: I am not susceptible for lies and accusations against My beloved.
Get to know who you are in Christ.
1 John 1:9 is a good one if the devil accuses. Neil Anderson wrote a book about being free. He had a list w Bible texts in it about who you are in Christ.
Ah here, it's a pdf:
https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&sour...FjAiegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3bmvIWOGlevq6UJGlqDwrI

Snerfle said:

Thank you for agreeing with me , you made my point.
The devil likes to take a snippet here, pluck a text there, twist the meaning and use it like poison, causing ppl to fear and doubt their salvation.
The counter is to show God's Word of Truth in context ... It is written. God loves us and wants us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and know we are saved. :cheer:

The devil tries to use God's own Word against God and against God's ppl, trying to snatch us out of God's hand and doubt our salvation, but God gave us His Word to have assurance of salvation.
God bless you today. :hug2:

Click to expand...

This post was a reply to Imalive. You chose to re-quote it and post the reply below ↓

meluckycharms said:

Honest question, with hundreds of denominations, who is right?

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But I didn't ask any question in my reply ↑ to Imalive , so I dont know what you're referring to there.

Anyway, then you chose to re-quote only the bottom portion of my post, and replied with this ↓

meluckycharms said:

Ok...i am confused. I was under the assumption that you supported the doctrine of "once saved always saved". Unless you are suggesting that the devil's attempts are in vain.

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You re-quoted my post in full the first time ... It was pretty clear , as is my signature. Why would you then re-quote only part of it and then propose a possible different (obviously faulty) conclusion?

I believe in osas because My God and Saviour Jesus is Sovereign and the Bible teaches it, who He saves He saves to the uttermost, He's not a flip-flopper, and the Bible is not a wishy-washy book by man, it's the Word of God.

God bless you.
Hope that clears it up a bit.

I'm not without my struggles and human weaknesses, but the Bible is pretty clear on certain things, even if I'm not always. I'm still a work in progress, and the rate (speed) of growth seems to change at times, ebb and flow, feeling like it's dragging sometimes, then a rapid growth spurt at others, and I guess that's also part of the 'Working out' of salvation in Philippians2:12 ... The salvation we ALREADY HAVE (if you have it?), not a salvation we can lose. Verse 2:12 is not about us being able to earn, keep, or lose our salvation.