Another shooting spree in the USA

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

Hammster said:
So you'll just complain about the weather. Gotcha.

I am not a USA chap. I lived there for a while but do not now. It's a matter for USA people to solve.

Alithis · Oct 2, 2015

bill1231 said:
And it is true, unarmed citizens and teachers make this a soft target that is victim rich and attracts crazies. If they were armed and it was a lot harder I dont think it would be prevalant

sounds nice but observe the world ..

in the east ..like iraq for instance .. fully armed military do not deter the demonic wickedness of the malcontent.they just elevate from handguns to hidden bombs .. 'you arm the schools and this is what you will see.

prayer will have more effect the a million guns in the hands off the flesh
.

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

Alithis said:
sounds nice but observe the world ..

in the east ..like iraq for instance .. fully armed military do not deter the demonic wickedness of the malcontent.they just elevate from handguns to hidden bombs .. 'you arm the schools and this is what you will see.

prayer will have more effect the a million guns in the hands off the flesh
.

Even more effective would be prayer coupled with godliness in life and in attitudes towards others.

psalms 91 · Oct 2, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Even more effective would be prayer coupled with godliness in life and in attitudes towards others.

Pretty hard to preach morality when even those in the church dont practice it and when our nation commits murder every day that is legalized.

Alithis · Oct 2, 2015

i personally think america's fascination with weapons of war ,in any form ,is nothing short of idolatry and has no place in the church .

dogs4thewin · Oct 2, 2015

I will support tighter gun control as soon as it can be proven that crime is just as likely in places where people are armed than are not.

dogs4thewin · Oct 2, 2015

Alithis said:
i personally think america's fascination with weapons of war ,in any form ,is nothing short of idolatry and has no place in the church .

so you mean to tell me that we can not defend ourselves because we are Christians? Moreover, that we cannot help defend OTHERS.

Alithis · Oct 2, 2015

dogs4thewin said:
so you mean to tell me that we can not defend ourselves because we are Christians? Moreover, that we cannot help defend OTHERS.

see.. immediately the point and purpose of the gospel is missed in defense of the idolized gun ...

Biblicist · Oct 2, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
In Oregon there's been 15 or more people killed and up to 20 (in total?) shot.

I guess "guns do not kill people, people kill people" is still the mantra of the pro gun ownership lobby.

I can understand that from an Australian perspective that the saying that "Guns do not kill people but guns do" can seem odd to us, but surprisingly it is true which is why I now support the private ownership of guns in the USA, along with the right to open-carry sidearms. As the history of the US has essentially been fought with a gun, and not so much through careful deliberation, there is actually a lot of value with encouraging private gun ownership. I understand that the State of Oregon allows college students to carry concealed weapons which is why I wonder that another student was unable to stop the assailants rampage?

dogs4thewin · Oct 2, 2015

Let me explain something to you if you choose not to defend yourself gun or no gun then that is your business, but you should be willing to defend OTHERS and not tell other people that they may not defend themselves with lethal force if need be.

Alithis said:
see.. immediately the point and purpose of the gospel is missed in defense of the idolized gun ...

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

Biblicist said:
I can understand that from an Australian perspective that the saying that "Guns do not kill people but guns do" can seem odd to us, but surprisingly it is true which is why I now support the private ownership of guns in the USA, along with the right to open-carry sidearms. As the history of the US has essentially been fought with a gun, and not so much through careful deliberation, there is actually a lot of value with encouraging private gun ownership. I understand that the State of Oregon allows college students to carry concealed weapons which is why I wonder that another student was unable to stop the assailants rampage?

That saying (guns do not kill people, people kill people) is true only in the most trivial of senses. The truth is that people with guns kill more efficiently and can kill more people than people who must rely on a knife or a punch. The only reason why there are lots of knife and punch killings is that nearly everybody has a knife or a fist but not everybody has a gun; but the number of people who kill using a gun in the USA is disturbingly high and having lots of guns readily available is a contributing factor in the number of gun killings. But the real source of the difficulty in the USA is cultural. This is clearly the case because a country like Switzerland has higher private gun ownership per capita than the USA yet has a gun killing rate that is less than a tenth of the USA's.

Biblicist · Oct 2, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
That saying (guns do not kill people, people kill people) is true only in the most trivial of senses. The truth is that people with guns kill more efficiently and can kill more people than people who must rely on a knife or a punch. The only reason why there are lots of knife and punch killings is that nearly everybody has a knife or a fist but not everybody has a gun; but the number of people who kill using a gun in the USA is disturbingly high and having lots of guns readily available is a contributing factor in the number of gun killings. But the real source of the difficulty in the USA is cultural. This is clearly the case because a country like Switzerland has higher private gun ownership per capita then the USA yet has a gun killing rate that is less than a tenth of the USA's.

Your spot on in that "the real source of the difficulty in the USA is cultural". Due to the complex nature of life in the USA (and its culture of deciding who is right through might), then if the general population were to have their guns removed (which will never happen), then the violent and unstable component within US society will only find other ways to create carnage, we only have to take a look at the bombing in Oklahoma back in 1988 where 168 people were killed; if guns were ever removed from the general population then we would undoubtedly see an increase with bombings and of course it would always be easy to source an illegal weapon.

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

Biblicist said:
Your spot on in that "the real source of the difficulty in the USA is cultural". Due to the complex nature of life in the USA (and its culture of deciding who is right through might), then if the general population were to have their guns removed (which will never happen), then the violent and unstable component within US society will only find other ways to create carnage, we only have to take a look at the bombing in Oklahoma back in 1988 where 168 people were killed; if guns were ever removed from the general population then we would undoubtedly see an increase with bombings and of course it would always be easy to source an illegal weapon.

Reduced gun availability and more carefully policed licensing may contribute to reductions in gun killings in the USA but it would probably take a long time for any changes to work their way through the society because as of now the USA has an awful lot of guns and it appears that legal gun purchases are easy enough to allow many of the mass shooters to get them legally. The most recent shooter got his guns and ammunition legally.

tango · Oct 2, 2015

Alithis said:
i personally think america's fascination with weapons of war ,in any form ,is nothing short of idolatry and has no place in the church .

One can have a firearm without being "fascinated" by it and without idolising it. For the people who use a rifle to hunt deer for food it's hard to see how they would hunt with only a big stick. The rifle is essential for hunting, so the person who wants to keep their rifle isn't making an idol of it any more than the person who wants to keep their car or their laptop.

tango · Oct 2, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
That saying (guns do not kill people, people kill people) is true only in the most trivial of senses. The truth is that people with guns kill more efficiently and can kill more people than people who must rely on a knife or a punch. The only reason why there are lots of knife and punch killings is that nearly everybody has a knife or a fist but not everybody has a gun; but the number of people who kill using a gun in the USA is disturbingly high and having lots of guns readily available is a contributing factor in the number of gun killings. But the real source of the difficulty in the USA is cultural. This is clearly the case because a country like Switzerland has higher private gun ownership per capita than the USA yet has a gun killing rate that is less than a tenth of the USA's.

This is true - a gun certainly does make it easier to kill more people more quickly than running around with a big knife. But if the people who would currently use a gun to kill lots of people suddenly found they couldn't get a gun at all (for now let's assume that there was some way to make every privately held gun just vanish into smoke) the mindset that drives someone to go and kill defenceless children would almost certainly shift to finding some other way to kill them. Would we really be better off if we were faced with a news report of someone running wild with molotov cocktails or pipe bombs?

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

tango said:
This is true - a gun certainly does make it easier to kill more people more quickly than running around with a big knife. But if the people who would currently use a gun to kill lots of people suddenly found they couldn't get a gun at all (for now let's assume that there was some way to make every privately held gun just vanish into smoke) the mindset that drives someone to go and kill defenceless children would almost certainly shift to finding some other way to kill them. Would we really be better off if we were faced with a news report of someone running wild with molotov cocktails or pipe bombs?

I am not so sure that "some other way to kill them" would arise as often as using guns to do it now because some of these killers act on provocations that do not produce a long lasting effect so lack of guns and hence inability to act on the provocation quickly may lead to no action instead of multiple deaths.

tango · Oct 2, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
I am not so sure that "some other way to kill them" would arise as often as using guns to do it now because some of these killers act on provocations that do not produce a long lasting effect so lack of guns and hence inability to act on the provocation quickly may lead to no action instead of multiple deaths.

Perhaps, although to act in a way that is almost guaranteed to end with your own death seems like something a little more than a spur-of-the-moment decision. Maybe we would see fewer issues where someone just lost it in the heat of the moment but since presumably it's a premeditated thing to take guns and enough ammo to cause major carnage in the first place it doesn't seem like a big stretch that the premeditation could just as easily result in a bunch of molotov cocktails or pipe bombs.

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

tango said:
Perhaps, although to act in a way that is almost guaranteed to end with your own death seems like something a little more than a spur-of-the-moment decision. Maybe we would see fewer issues where someone just lost it in the heat of the moment but since presumably it's a premeditated thing to take guns and enough ammo to cause major carnage in the first place it doesn't seem like a big stretch that the premeditation could just as easily result in a bunch of molotov cocktails or pipe bombs.

Many suicide attempts are short term reactions to events or depression.

tango · Oct 2, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Many suicide attempts are short term reactions to events or depression.

Sure, but we're talking about people taking the specific decision to take firearms into a crowded area and start shooting.

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2015

tango said:
Sure, but we're talking about people taking the specific decision to take firearms into a crowded area and start shooting.

Yes, still a kind of suicide as you pointed out.

Another shooting spree in the USA

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