friendship with the world

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
4 "You adulterous people,don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 6 But he gives us more grace."
James 4:4-6

I've been thinking lately about what this means "friendship with the world". James tells us to be this kind of person makes you an enemy of God. I am not sure where this line is drawn as I see a lot of Christians who love a lot of things in the world and look much like the world. What do you think?
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think a lot depends on just where our heart is, and it's often very hard to tell where someone else's heart is.

It has been said that you can tell a lot about someone's priorities by looking at their checkbook. There's certainly some truth in that but it doesn't tell you anything about their prayer life and how they spend their time. Sometimes writing a check is the soft option when it comes to caring - it's easy to write a check and figure someone else can get their hands dirty doing the real work, but much harder to actually roll up your sleeves and get busy actually doing the work that needs to be done. Whether it's helping in a soup kitchen, volunteering at a social club for the old folks, adopting a troubled child, actually doing the work can often cost a whole lot more than simply writing a check and figuring Someone Else will get involved. Of course larger charities are more likely to make a big song and dance about their major donors, whereas the person who gets busy volunteering doesn't necessarily get any public recognition at all.

If you're about the public adulation the chances are your heart is in the wrong place.

As far as people who "look much like the world" I suppose it would depend on exactly how they look like the world. I've seen people use all sorts of silly circular reasoning to try and prohibit the things they dislike, with "reasoning" (the term used in its loosest possible context) that goes along the lines of "the world drinks alcohol, we should not be like the world, therefore we should not drink alcohol". Such bizarre arguments are often presented as if they were unshakeable, but then the people who present them dislike being told "the world wears clothes, we are not to be like the world, therefore we should not wear clothes" or similar. In many ways we should expect a Christian to look much like the world, in that Christians may ride the train to work, work in regular employment, collect a paycheck, hang out with friends in the evening, maybe visit the bar and have a couple of drinks, watch a sporting match, and so on. You know, all the things that "the world" does. To a casual observer they may look just like their secular counterparts. To a casual observer it may be difficult to differentiate a Christian from a non-Christian, and in many ways I don't think that has to be a problem - how exactly are we to be visibly different from a non-Christian, as observed by someone with no more contact with us than happening to be riding in the same train carriage as us? On the other hand, if it becomes clear to people based on knowing us for a time that we don't actually care for widows and orphans, don't love God, don't love our neighbor, and want nothing more than our own life of hedonism, they may be reasonable in asking whether we are truly Christians.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think a lot depends on just where our heart is, and it's often very hard to tell where someone else's heart is.

It has been said that you can tell a lot about someone's priorities by looking at their checkbook. There's certainly some truth in that but it doesn't tell you anything about their prayer life and how they spend their time. Sometimes writing a check is the soft option when it comes to caring - it's easy to write a check and figure someone else can get their hands dirty doing the real work, but much harder to actually roll up your sleeves and get busy actually doing the work that needs to be done. Whether it's helping in a soup kitchen, volunteering at a social club for the old folks, adopting a troubled child, actually doing the work can often cost a whole lot more than simply writing a check and figuring Someone Else will get involved. Of course larger charities are more likely to make a big song and dance about their major donors, whereas the person who gets busy volunteering doesn't necessarily get any public recognition at all.

If you're about the public adulation the chances are your heart is in the wrong place.

As far as people who "look much like the world" I suppose it would depend on exactly how they look like the world. I've seen people use all sorts of silly circular reasoning to try and prohibit the things they dislike, with "reasoning" (the term used in its loosest possible context) that goes along the lines of "the world drinks alcohol, we should not be like the world, therefore we should not drink alcohol". Such bizarre arguments are often presented as if they were unshakeable, but then the people who present them dislike being told "the world wears clothes, we are not to be like the world, therefore we should not wear clothes" or similar. In many ways we should expect a Christian to look much like the world, in that Christians may ride the train to work, work in regular employment, collect a paycheck, hang out with friends in the evening, maybe visit the bar and have a couple of drinks, watch a sporting match, and so on. You know, all the things that "the world" does. To a casual observer they may look just like their secular counterparts. To a casual observer it may be difficult to differentiate a Christian from a non-Christian, and in many ways I don't think that has to be a problem - how exactly are we to be visibly different from a non-Christian, as observed by someone with no more contact with us than happening to be riding in the same train carriage as us? On the other hand, if it becomes clear to people based on knowing us for a time that we don't actually care for widows and orphans, don't love God, don't love our neighbor, and want nothing more than our own life of hedonism, they may be reasonable in asking whether we are truly Christians.
 

Particular

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
441
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
4 "You adulterous people,don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 6 But he gives us more grace."
James 4:4-6

I've been thinking lately about what this means "friendship with the world". James tells us to be this kind of person makes you an enemy of God. I am not sure where this line is drawn as I see a lot of Christians who love a lot of things in the world and look much like the world. What do you think?
Here's a lexicon on verse 4.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/james/4-4.htm
Friendship is the greek word "philia."
World is the greek word "kosmos."

My initial thought is that when we are adopted by God our citizenship transfers from whatever kingdom of men to the Kingdom of God. Humans are at war with God. They are in complete rebellion.
For us to look with friendship upon a kingdom that is at war with our King is for us to play a traitors role that brings God's wrath against us. Yet, because God's Spirit has adopted us, God keeps extending grace.
James then tells us what to do to repent. That is to humble ourselves before our King so that rather than wrath, held back by God's grace, God will exalt us as a good and faithful servant.
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think a lot depends on just where our heart is, and it's often very hard to tell where someone else's heart is.

It has been said that you can tell a lot about someone's priorities by looking at their checkbook. There's certainly some truth in that but it doesn't tell you anything about their prayer life and how they spend their time. Sometimes writing a check is the soft option when it comes to caring - it's easy to write a check and figure someone else can get their hands dirty doing the real work, but much harder to actually roll up your sleeves and get busy actually doing the work that needs to be done. Whether it's helping in a soup kitchen, volunteering at a social club for the old folks, adopting a troubled child, actually doing the work can often cost a whole lot more than simply writing a check and figuring Someone Else will get involved. Of course larger charities are more likely to make a big song and dance about their major donors, whereas the person who gets busy volunteering doesn't necessarily get any public recognition at all.

If you're about the public adulation the chances are your heart is in the wrong place.

As far as people who "look much like the world" I suppose it would depend on exactly how they look like the world. I've seen people use all sorts of silly circular reasoning to try and prohibit the things they dislike, with "reasoning" (the term used in its loosest possible context) that goes along the lines of "the world drinks alcohol, we should not be like the world, therefore we should not drink alcohol". Such bizarre arguments are often presented as if they were unshakeable, but then the people who present them dislike being told "the world wears clothes, we are not to be like the world, therefore we should not wear clothes" or similar. In many ways we should expect a Christian to look much like the world, in that Christians may ride the train to work, work in regular employment, collect a paycheck, hang out with friends in the evening, maybe visit the bar and have a couple of drinks, watch a sporting match, and so on. You know, all the things that "the world" does. To a casual observer they may look just like their secular counterparts. To a casual observer it may be difficult to differentiate a Christian from a non-Christian, and in many ways I don't think that has to be a problem - how exactly are we to be visibly different from a non-Christian, as observed by someone with no more contact with us than happening to be riding in the same train carriage as us? On the other hand, if it becomes clear to people based on knowing us for a time that we don't actually care for widows and orphans, don't love God, don't love our neighbor, and want nothing more than our own life of hedonism, they may be reasonable in asking whether we are truly Christians.

I think it is not only hard to tell where someone else's heart is, but we have an amazing capacity to deceive ourselves. I think about the passage in the Bible that talks about the sheep and the goats being separated. Those who were cast away asked when they did not help by doing things like clothing others, helping others etc. They seemed genuinely surprised that some of their deeds were not counted.

Matthew 25:44-46
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Here's a lexicon on verse 4.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/james/4-4.htm
Friendship is the greek word "philia."
World is the greek word "kosmos."

My initial thought is that when we are adopted by God our citizenship transfers from whatever kingdom of men to the Kingdom of God. Humans are at war with God. They are in complete rebellion.
For us to look with friendship upon a kingdom that is at war with our King is for us to play a traitors role that brings God's wrath against us. Yet, because God's Spirit has adopted us, God keeps extending grace.
James then tells us what to do to repent. That is to humble ourselves before our King so that rather than wrath, held back by God's grace, God will exalt us as a good and faithful servant.

This doesn't sit with the idea of whether someone "looks like the world" - the simple reality is that we live in the world, we have to engage with the world in some capacity, and whether or not God has exalted us as good and faithful servants isn't something that is visible in and of itself.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think it is not only hard to tell where someone else's heart is, but we have an amazing capacity to deceive ourselves. I think about the passage in the Bible that talks about the sheep and the goats being separated. Those who were cast away asked when they did not help by doing things like clothing others, helping others etc. They seemed genuinely surprised that some of their deeds were not counted.

Matthew 25:44-46
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

We can deceive ourselves, although I have to wonder whether the people unexpectedly cast away from Jesus were the ones who thought they could earn salvation by works, rather than showing salvation by works.
 

Particular

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
441
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
This doesn't sit with the idea of whether someone "looks like the world" - the simple reality is that we live in the world, we have to engage with the world in some capacity, and whether or not God has exalted us as good and faithful servants isn't something that is visible in and of itself.
Where are you getting "looks like the world" from? It's not in the passage.

What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
~ James 4:1-10
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Where are you getting "looks like the world" from? It's not in the passage.

What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
~ James 4:1-10

I believe that phrase is in my opening post. And it doesn't take away from what Tango said earlier about how many believers at least appear to be very similar to those in the world and of the world. I am struggling to understand in practical ways what it means to have friendship with the world. Does it mean that the person has compromised their values as such that it doesn't seem to bother them to practice and engage in the same kind of talk or lifestyle that the world does? Or does it mean that the person doesn't appear to love God or hate the things that God hates such as sin? or something in between these thoughts
 

Particular

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
441
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I believe that phrase is in my opening post. And it doesn't take away from what Tango said earlier about how many believers at least appear to be very similar to those in the world and of the world. I am struggling to understand in practical ways what it means to have friendship with the world. Does it mean that the person has compromised their values as such that it doesn't seem to bother them to practice and engage in the same kind of talk or lifestyle that the world does? Or does it mean that the person doesn't appear to love God or hate the things that God hates such as sin? or something in between these thoughts
Hmm...I thought I gave you the practical answer.
Oh well. Carry on.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Where are you getting "looks like the world" from? It's not in the passage.

From the original post about Christians who "look like the world".
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I believe that phrase is in my opening post. And it doesn't take away from what Tango said earlier about how many believers at least appear to be very similar to those in the world and of the world. I am struggling to understand in practical ways what it means to have friendship with the world. Does it mean that the person has compromised their values as such that it doesn't seem to bother them to practice and engage in the same kind of talk or lifestyle that the world does? Or does it mean that the person doesn't appear to love God or hate the things that God hates such as sin? or something in between these thoughts

I think this is very similar to the concept that Jesus spoke about when he mentioned serving two masters.

In this day and age it's quite common for people to "serve two masters" in a manner of speaking. It's quite common for people to have two jobs and therefore have two people who might be called "master" (or at least "boss"). But even then it only works for as long as the two don't conflict. If both bosses want you in on Wednesday morning there's a problem. In the same way we can be "in the world" and in many ways look much like the world, but what often matters is what happens when the world's call and God's call conflict.

One thing a lot of people like to talk about is money. There's nothing wrong with a Christian having money, what matters is the relationship with money. If our attitude is that it is on loan from God then it doesn't matter whether we barely have two pennies to rub together or we make Bill Gates look like a poor man - we're ready to give up some or all of it if God calls us to use it in a particular manner. Likewise if our attitude is grasping and self-serving it doesn't matter how much we have - if we refuse to put God before our money (however much or little we have) then money becomes an idol and that's a problem. If a Christian were driving around in a $300,000 Ferrari and wearing a $10,000 suit we might ask whether this represented good stewardship, but ultimately it's still between them and God.

Ultimately I think it's about our priorities. If our priority is to serve God I don't think it matters if we indulge ourselves along the way. If our priority is not to serve God it doesn't matter if we deprive ourselves. If God's call conflicts with the world's call, what matters is whether we do the right thing (i.e. follow God, wherever the path takes us), or serve ourselves and deny God. If we walk with God for as long as our paths happen to coincide we can't claim to be following God - as soon as our paths diverge we go our own way. We can only claim to be following God if we choose not to walk our own path because we have decided to follow God's path instead.
 
Top Bottom