Is infant baptism from the Bible?

MennoSota

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Glad you agree with me. (For once, lol) That took over two years, lol


Because your whole premise is silly and one you yourself reject and never employ. You keep TRYING to say "All the Baptisms in the Bible were like this....." then prove that's not true. SOME were, but ALL you now admit you cannot show. It COULD be everyone in all those households was over the age of you-won't-say, but it's also possible that ALL of them were under the age of you-won't-say; so your whole argument just got destroyed. We don't know what was always done.... or even usually done. It COULD be 99% of them were of those over the age of you-won't-say, and it could be 99% of them were UNDER the age of you-won't-say. As you now finally admit (after two years of insisting on the opposite), we DON'T KNOW what was done..... much less what was regarded as mandated or prohibited.

But then your whole premise is silly. This whole idea that we MUST do as done in the Bible (even though you now admit we don't know what was done in this regard) and cannot do otherwise. This idea that a few examples IS teaching and the foundation for inventing new dogma. It's silly. And one you NEVER employ yourself yet insist others do (but only in a few applications). Let's embrace your premise, the whole foundation of your apologetic: Now, I actually COULD prove that EVERY post at CH is written in English. No guessing, no presuming, no "well, I have 5 examples I can prove of this but a lot where I don't know), I can PROVE it. EVERY TIME, in EVERY CASE. Would that mean that ERGO it is forbidden at CH to post in another language (even though you can't find that stated in the rules)? Would it mean posting in another language makes for an invalid post? Of course not, that's silly and illogical. ALL it means that in every case, that's what has been DONE. It's normative for NOTHING. It's just examples of what has been done. But at least that would be provable and 100% always the case. You can't prove what happened with baptisms in the Bible - as you now (after two solid years!) admit. It's a silly premise. And you never accept or employ it.

So, we're back to your rule: Just the words of Scripture. NOTHING influencing them, NOTHING forced into them, NOTHING added or deleted. What the Bible SAYS. Great! So, I'll ask the same questions I have of you on this for over two years: QUOTE the WORDS that state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their won't-tell-you-which birthday." Where does the Bible SAY THAT?! QUOTE the WORDS that state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath adequately repented." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath proven they are among the Elect." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath proven they have accepted Jesus as thouest personal Savior." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless every cell of their body is entirely covered by water." NO eisegesis. NO words added or changed or deleted. NO opinions forced into the text. Just what the Bible says. None of this, "I can't prove what was always done and it doesn't matter anyway but all baptisms were to those over the age of i-won't-say and thus it's dogmatically required all be over the age of I-won't-say."


Now lest you try to impose your silliness on me, NO ONE on the historic side of this claims there is a verse that states, "Thou musteth baptize all beforeth they celebrate their we-won't-tell-you-which birthday." Don't try to reverse the table. We approach from "where does it say, "Thou canst NOT...." By your premise, where is the verse that says we can baptize Americans or Negroids or fat people or smart people or Baptists? Most Christians would agree that we cannot kill women, but yes, I agree, the Bible only says "Do not kill" - it never mentions WOMEN specifically (or unborn children or Jews or African-American slaves) but where does it EXCLUDE specifically children under the age of you-won't-say? The Anabaptist invented a very specific, very focused EXCEPTION but admitted they had not one verse that states that exception. Jesus said, Go and make disciples of all people." We would object to some new dogma, invented 1500 years later, that declares, ".... but thou canst NOT even attempt that to one who is over 6 feet tall or has flat feet." Where did Jesus say that? Where did Jesus say, "But thou canst NOT baptize any who hath not yet attainedth their I-won't-tell-you-which birthday!" "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath adequately repented of all their sins. "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven they are among the elect?" "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven they have chosen Me as their personal Savior and surrendered the steering wheel of their lives to Me." Where? And while you are at it, where did God ever say the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" applies to Jews or slaves or that jerk at work? We can't find all these "thou canst NOT' prohibitions the Anabaptists invented and you parrot. We don't accept them because we can't find them.





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The title of this thread is simple.
"Is infant baptism from the Bible?"
The answer, which you should agree with, is...NO. No, infant baptism is not from the Bible.
Do you agree?
 

Lamb

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One must realize historically that "entire households" included not only children but slaves, servants and their families as well and then it's easy to see how "entire households" in the bible included children. They believed in community and you can see that from the Old Testament on...it wasn't until the 1500s that things changed.
 

MennoSota

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One must realize historically that "entire households" included not only children but slaves, servants and their families as well and then it's easy to see how "entire households" in the bible included children. They believed in community and you can see that from the Old Testament on...it wasn't until the 1500s that things changed.
This is a wonderful, non-biblical argument.
The OP asks if infant baptism is found in the Bible. The answer is clearly...no...infant baptism is not found in the Bible.
 

Lamb

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This is a wonderful, non-biblical argument.
The OP asks if infant baptism is found in the Bible. The answer is clearly...no...infant baptism is not found in the Bible.

If you reject entire households having infants then that is going to be your opinion.
 

MennoSota

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If you reject entire households having infants then that is going to be your opinion.
No, I reject reading it into the text and claiming infant baptism when there is no concrete evidence.
Surely you can admit that the text shows no infant being baptized.
The argument is a created argument based upon inference and attempting to project a cultural reading into the text (eisegesis).
The OP asks if infant baptism can be found in the Bible. The very clear answer is...no...it cannot be found.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

Because your whole premise is silly and one you yourself reject and never employ. You keep TRYING to say "All the Baptisms in the Bible were like this....." then prove that's not true. SOME were, but ALL you now admit you cannot show. It COULD be everyone in all those households was over the age of you-won't-say, but it's also possible that ALL of them were under the age of you-won't-say; so your whole argument just got destroyed. We don't know what was always done.... or even usually done. It COULD be 99% of them were of those over the age of you-won't-say, and it could be 99% of them were UNDER the age of you-won't-say. As you now finally admit (after two years of insisting on the opposite), we DON'T KNOW what was done..... much less what was regarded as mandated or prohibited.


But then your whole premise is silly. This whole idea that we MUST do as done in the Bible (even though you now admit we don't know what was done in this regard) and cannot do otherwise. This idea that a few examples IS teaching and the foundation for inventing new dogma. It's silly. And one you NEVER employ yourself yet insist others do (but only in a few applications). Let's embrace your premise, the whole foundation of your apologetic: Now, I actually COULD prove that EVERY post at CH is written in English. No guessing, no presuming, no "well, I have 5 examples I can prove of this but a lot where I don't know), I can PROVE it. EVERY TIME, in EVERY CASE. Would that mean that ERGO it is forbidden at CH to post in another language (even though you can't find that stated in the rules)? Would it mean posting in another language makes for an invalid post? Of course not, that's silly and illogical. ALL it means that in every case, that's what has been DONE. It's normative for NOTHING. It's just examples of what has been done. But at least that would be provable and 100% always the case. You can't prove what happened with baptisms in the Bible - as you now (after two solid years!) admit. It's a silly premise. And you never accept or employ it.


So, we're back to your rule: Just the words of Scripture. NOTHING influencing them, NOTHING forced into them, NOTHING added or deleted. What the Bible SAYS. Great! So, I'll ask the same questions I have of you on this for over two years: QUOTE the WORDS that state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their won't-tell-you-which birthday." Where does the Bible SAY THAT?! QUOTE the WORDS that state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath adequately repented." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath proven they are among the Elect." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath proven they have accepted Jesus as thouest personal Savior." "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless every cell of their body is entirely covered by water." NO eisegesis. NO words added or changed or deleted. NO opinions forced into the text. Just what the Bible says. None of this, "I can't prove what was always done and it doesn't matter anyway but all baptisms were to those over the age of i-won't-say and thus it's dogmatically required all be over the age of I-won't-say."


Now lest you try to impose your silliness on me, NO ONE on the historic side of this claims there is a verse that states, "Thou musteth baptize all beforeth they celebrate their we-won't-tell-you-which birthday." Don't try to reverse the table. We approach from "where does it say, "Thou canst NOT...." By your premise, where is the verse that says we can baptize Americans or Negroids or fat people or smart people or Baptists? Most Christians would agree that we cannot kill women, but yes, I agree, the Bible only says "Do not kill" - it never mentions WOMEN specifically (or unborn children or Jews or African-American slaves) but where does it EXCLUDE specifically children under the age of you-won't-say? The Anabaptist invented a very specific, very focused EXCEPTION but admitted they had not one verse that states that exception. Jesus said, Go and make disciples of all people." We would object to some new dogma, invented 1500 years later, that declares, ".... but thou canst NOT even attempt that to one who is over 6 feet tall or has flat feet." Where did Jesus say that? Where did Jesus say, "But thou canst NOT baptize any who hath not yet attainedth their I-won't-tell-you-which birthday!" "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath adequately repented of all their sins. "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven they are among the elect?" "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven they have chosen Me as their personal Savior and surrendered the steering wheel of their lives to Me." Where? And while you are at it, where did God ever say the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" applies to Jews or slaves or that jerk at work? We can't find all these "thou canst NOT' prohibitions the Anabaptists invented and you parrot. We don't accept them because we can't find them.



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Is infant baptism from the Bible?

Is there an obvious, clear EXAMPLE of an infant being baptized in the Bible? No.

SO WHAT?


Now, I have some more questions for you....

Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of an American being baptized?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a Baptists being baptized?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a blonde-haired person being baptized in the Bible?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a fat person being baptized in the Bible?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a person of the Negroid race being baptized in the Bible?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a a person being baptized in a plastic tank behind a curtain?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a person being baptized by a Gentile, a person of non-Hebraic ethnicity?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a person being baptized in the Americas?
If it matters whether there is someone under the age of you-won't-say being baptized in the Bible, then why don't the above equally matter?

Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of women and kids receiving Communion?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of Communion being passed around with little cut up pieces of white bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of woman pastors or youth pastors?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of churches using electricity, computers, powerpoint?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of pastors wearing Aloha shirts and Jeans?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of anyone posting on the internet?
If it matters whether there is someone under the age of you-won't-say being baptized in the Bible, then why don't the above equally matter?






.
 
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Lamb

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No, I reject reading it into the text and claiming infant baptism when there is no concrete evidence.
Surely you can admit that the text shows no infant being baptized.
The argument is a created argument based upon inference and attempting to project a cultural reading into the text (eisegesis).
The OP asks if infant baptism can be found in the Bible. The very clear answer is...no...it cannot be found.

I can ask a lot of other questions that the bible won't say SPECIFICALLY about baptism too...the ones Josiah has been asking you over and over. No blondes were baptized and yet you probably baptize them too? Entire households WERE baptized. It's modern thinking to reject that children weren't included.
 

MennoSota

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Is there an obvious, clear EXAMPLE of an infant being baptized in the Bible? No.

SO WHAT? Answer that question.


Now, I have some more questions for you....

Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of an American being baptized?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a Baptists being baptized?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a blonde-haired person being baptized in the Bible?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a fat person being baptized in the Bible?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a person of the Negroid race being baptized in the Bible?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a a person being baptized in a plastic tank behind a curtain?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a person being baptized by a Gentile, a person of non-Hebraic ethnicity?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of a person being baptized in the Americas?
If it matters whether there is someone under the age of you-won't-say being baptized in the Bible, then why don't the above equally matter?

Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of women and kids receiving Communion?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of Communion being passed around with little cut up pieces of white bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of woman pastors or youth pastors?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of churches using electricity, computers, powerpoint?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of pastors wearing Aloha shirts and Jeans?
Is there a clear, obvious example in the Bible of anyone posting on the internet?
If it matters whether there is someone under the age of you-won't-say being baptized in the Bible, then why don't the above equally matter?






.
Thank you for saying...No. That is all that the OP asked. There is nothing more for you or I to discuss in this thread. We agree on the OPs point.
 

MennoSota

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I can ask a lot of other questions that the bible won't say SPECIFICALLY about baptism too...the ones Josiah has been asking you over and over. No blondes were baptized and yet you probably baptize them too? Entire households WERE baptized. It's modern thinking to reject that children weren't included.
This is not the question of the OP.
The OP had a simple, yes or no question. The answer to the OP is...No.
 

Lamb

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This is not the question of the OP.
The OP had a simple, yes or no question. The answer to the OP is...No.

The OP's title and the OP's question in his post are two different things. Did you read his OP?

Jesus said that these little ones can believe in Him. The OP disagrees that infants can have faith.
 

psalms 91

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Maybe for those who dont believe in infant baptism and even for those who do to define Children and infants, I think maybe that is part of the disagreement. For instance Lamms example the little children came unto him, children, not infants
 

Lamb

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Maybe for those who dont believe in infant baptism and even for those who do to define Children and infants, I think maybe that is part of the disagreement. For instance Lamms example the little children came unto him, children, not infants

In the original languages such as in Luke 18:15-17 we see that Jesus uses babies as examples of sincere faith. The Greek word for babies is “brephos” which means infant.
 

MennoSota

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In the original languages such as in Luke 18:15-17 we see that Jesus uses babies as examples of sincere faith. The Greek word for babies is “brephos” which means infant.
Sure, Jesus used infants as metaphors for a life of faith, but that has nothing to do with this topic.
 

MennoSota

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The OP's title and the OP's question in his post are two different things. Did you read his OP?

Jesus said that these little ones can believe in Him. The OP disagrees that infants can have faith.

Do you have a specific verse where Jesus says toddlers, only weeks old, can have faith and belief in his atoning sacrifice on the cross for their rebellious spirit?
 

Albion

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Maybe for those who dont believe in infant baptism and even for those who do to define Children and infants, I think maybe that is part of the disagreement. For instance Lamms example the little children came unto him, children, not infants

So, in churches whose baptismal regulations agree with your view of the matter...do they baptize 2 year olds? Or 4 year olds? If not, why not, and how can it square with what you have written here?
 

atpollard

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Is there an obvious, clear EXAMPLE of an infant being baptized in the Bible? No.

SO WHAT?
So ... that is the name of the Topic and the subject of the OP (neither of which were created by MennoSota).
You are a big fan of keeping the conversation on topic.
 

atpollard

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Entire households WERE baptized. It's modern thinking to reject that children weren't included.
Were cats included in Egyptian households? They were VERY fond of pet cats and probably considered them part of the household.

Does the Lutheran Church baptize small dogs for modern people that view them as their children?
 

Albion

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So ... that is the name of the Topic and the subject of the OP (neither of which were created by MennoSota).
You are a big fan of keeping the conversation on topic.

Once again, we seem to have a misunderstanding about the meaning of someone else's post. See that big word "EXAMPLE?"

The point was not about infant baptism per se but about one of the criticisms of it given by a critic. If we must have a complete baptismal ceremony of an infant recorded in scripture for us to believe it happened according to other information we find in Scripture, then where does this stop?

Are we also to do away with marriages? There is no wedding ceremony described in detail to be found in the New Testament, either--but we know from the New Testament that they took place. Just like the practice of baptizing children.
 

MennoSota

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Once again, we seem to have a misunderstanding about the meaning of someone else's post. See that big word "EXAMPLE?"

The point was not about infant baptism per se but about one of the criticisms of it given by a critic. If we must have a complete baptismal ceremony of an infant recorded in scripture for us to believe it happened according to other information we find in Scripture, then where does this stop?

Are we also to do away with marriages? There is no wedding ceremony described in detail to be found in the New Testament, either--but we know from the New Testament that they took place. Just like the practice of baptizing children.
Wedding equals the copulation of one male with one female. This is why God declares the two to be one. This is why sexual sins are so egregious. God is not unclear about marriage, humans have simply turned it into a cultural ceremony.

It is apparent that infant baptism is a ceremony created by humans and argued into the Bible by making a human argument that the cultural understanding of the word, household, therefore means all persons and that all households must have infants in them. Therefore, infants must have been baptized in Lydia's household as well as the jailer's household. It's a man-made argument to prop up a dogma.
All I wish from this dialogue is for you to admit this fact.
 

Albion

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Were cats included in Egyptian households? They were VERY fond of pet cats and probably considered them part of the household.

Does the Lutheran Church baptize small dogs for modern people that view them as their children?

The fact is, though, that they AREN'T those people's children. To even allow the possibility is to mock the reliability of Holy Scripture.
 
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