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Lamb · Oct 14, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
No one is denying the need for Messiah in any way whatsoever.

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What people are denying is that the Messiah is the one who brings us to eternal life. There are some who insist we have to do something to earn it and that throws aside the work of the Messiah.

Andrew · Oct 14, 2019

Believe and though shalt be saved, the rest/good and charitable works follow.. please spare me the whole "demons believe too" because I am no demon nor does any demon speak for me, if one confesses that Jesus is Lord and professes with his tongue that He has come in the flesh though shalt be saved.
There is nothing in scripture that says the good work is not finished, let God put his good works in you because without him your works are pure filth and worthless

zecryphon_nomdiv · Oct 14, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
No one is denying the need for Messiah in any way whatsoever.

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Who is saying that people are denying they need Jesus?

Michael · Oct 14, 2019

Lämmchen said:
In your baptism you are clothed in Jesus AND you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guides us into doing the works He has laid out for us according to His Will but because we are clothed in Jesus, we are seen as Not Guilty before God. Because of Jesus, the Law is fulfilled, not by your own merits, but because of Jesus' merits and death on the cross.

God commands us to love Him with all our heart. Have any of you done that? Every second of the day? I say that none of you can do it. If you say you have then you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you because your sinful body will struggle against the New Adam within you, tainting your ability to be perfect. That's why you all need Jesus.

Sister, I've heard such preaching and "Christianese" for many years, and used to believe somewhat along that line... until I realized that the Bible really doesn't teach it that way; and then when I set aside the filters of Religion, God began to show me the Truth of His Word. If the Apostles knew and taught and wrote that both they and we have to attain to the promises of God by our repentance and obedience, how can we today possibly believe differently just because slick salesman, man appointed preachers and motivational speakers tell us otherwise.

“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings."
- Jer 23:21-22

As always, we see Repentance (an actual turning away from sin) is the number one requirement. Jesus taught that. John the Baptist taught that. And even after the Blood atonement and Resurrection of Jesus, the Apostles taught that without True Biblical Repentance (as I've covered extensively in several videos), and Obedience to God's commands given through Christ (Not the Law of Moses) we will not receive the promises; and in fact, not even the Holy Spirit -

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

"the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” - Acts 5:32

And again, this is far beyond being "saved."

For once the Truth of God hits us that being "saved" is the beginning not the end, the whole of Scripture and Gods great plan and purpose begins to become clear and far more exciting than the mythology our "Christian" Religion has constructed today.

Oh Glory! Let us take in the "whole counsel of God" that we not be found lacking or unworthy in that Day.

:ange06:

pinacled · Oct 14, 2019

Michael said:
"They will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy." - Rev 3:4

Do we know that the promises of God are to those who prove themselves worthy?
These is the Word of Jesus. Can we accept it?

"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." - Matt 16:24

"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." - Matt 10:38

Jesus proved worthy of His calling; He bore His Cross. Will we bear our cross and prove worthy of what God has called us for?
If we are to overcome and enter into our inheritance, we must be found worthy.
For the Bible tells me so.

God's wisdom & understanding to all.

https://youtu.be/TjY7Y0ryRkc

You are a blessing Michael.

Thankyou for such wonderful fruits

popsthebuilder · Oct 14, 2019

How is anyone denying that when all they speak of doing is because of Christ Jesus?

You aren't taking anything away from GOD or Christ by abiding by the law of the Spirit of life. As if following the instructions of Jesus is somehow trying to make your own way apart from Him. He is the foundation. HIS Word is true. Every word spoken by the Christ of GOD was given Him by GOD. I don't count either of them liars; and I'm sure you don't either. Works of iniquity are not synonymous with the fruit of the Spirit.

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popsthebuilder · Oct 14, 2019

Andrew said:
Believe and though shalt be saved, the rest/good and charitable works follow.. please spare me the whole "demons believe too" because I am no demon nor does any demon speak for me, if one confesses that Jesus is Lord and professes with his tongue that He has come in the flesh though shalt be saved.
There is nothing in scripture that says the good work is not finished, let God put his good works in you because without him your works are pure filth and worthless

If one confesses with their mouth then their deeds aught to align with purported belief. We are warned about lip servants and hypocrisy.

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Andrew · Oct 14, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
If one confesses with their mouth then their deeds aught to align with purported belief. We are warned about lip servants and hypocrisy.

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I'm very aware of hypocrites and I see the majority of so called christians are very hypocritical, when someone claims they follow every law perfectly and are 100% Holy commiting no sins I know they are straight up liars even the Apostle Paul agrees

popsthebuilder · Oct 14, 2019

Andrew said:
I'm very aware of hypocrites and I see the majority of so called christians are very hypocritical, when someone claims they follow every law perfectly and are 100% Holy commiting no sins I know they are straight up liars even the Apostle Paul agrees

Anyone who claims they are holy or without sin is deceived and or deceiving.

That doesn't mean we can't do according to what is good.

To be clear; there is ONE that is good.

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zecryphon_nomdiv · Oct 14, 2019

popsthebuilder said:
How is anyone denying that when all they speak of doing is because of Christ Jesus?

You aren't taking anything away from GOD or Christ by abiding by the law of the Spirit of life. As if following the instructions of Jesus is somehow trying to make your own way apart from Him. He is the foundation. HIS Word is true. Every word spoken by the Christ of GOD was given Him by GOD. I don't count either of them liars; and I'm sure you don't either. Works of iniquity are not synonymous with the fruit of the Spirit.

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I was actually looking for names, but you've failed to produce any. I've already said that there are those here who are teaching that we have to do works to receive or attain eternal life. We don't earn eternal life with God by our works. It is His gift to us through His gift of salvation. Good works are a fruit of faith. We do them because we are saved. We do not do them to earn a reward from God.

popsthebuilder · Oct 14, 2019

zecryphon_nomdiv said:
I was actually looking for names, but you've failed to produce any. I've already said that there are those here who are teaching that we have to do works to receive or attain eternal life. We don't earn eternal life with God by our works. It is His gift to us through His gift of salvation. Good works are a fruit of faith. We do them because we are saved. We do not do them to earn a reward from God.

So you don't believe on the name of Jesus Christ that you will be saved? Explain your faith please. What do you believe? Obviously you wouldn't think works, or judgement at all, is truth for you, as you think you are already saved. The dude went over the scripture explaining that none has won the race until it is over. We all agree that good works are a product of faith; but you seem to think faith is a yes or no; an on or off. Surely you do not deny that faith grows, nor do you deny the metric by which we are told to test the spirits and gauge ones faith. It's by their works. No one is saying their works make them righteous. They do the works because of the grace of GOD and reciprocal love for HIM, known to them by HIS Christ and Word and Spirit.

Tell me you didn't proclaim the name of Jesus to be saved or for eternal life, and then you can speak of not doing for reward.

You seek to condemn a man because he doesn't believe in the same manner as you but we are told that those who aren't against Him are on His part. Do you really think all branches are identical? They aren't.

And how does one conflate belief with lip service exactly? One is talking for show and acceptance of man, while the other is an utter desire to wholly conform and be changed, to be found in the likeness of one's Master; or to be found DOING upon the return of their Master.

People too preoccupied with this life and the things there of remind me of the "friends" who begged to be excluded from the banquet or feast or wedding.

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zecryphon_nomdiv · Oct 14, 2019

"So you don't believe on the name of Jesus Christ that you will be saved?"

Show me where I said that.

"Explain your faith please. What do you believe?"

Click around here and you'll find out.

https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/#toggle-id-11

"Obviously you wouldn't think works or judgement at all is truth for you as you think you are already saved. The dude went over the scripture explaining that none has one the race until it is over. We all agree that good works are a product of faith; but you seem to think faith is a yes or no, an on or off."

Faith is a gift from God, not a decision as most people believe.

"Surely you do not deny that faith grows, nor do you deny the metric by which we are told to test the spirits and gauge ones faith; it's by their works."

That's horizontal justification, how we justify ourselves before other people.

"No one is saying their works make them righteous. They do the works because of the grace of GOD and reciprocal love for HIM known to them by HIS Christ and Word and Spirit."

Yeah, sure they're not. [emoji1787]

"Tell me you didn't proclaim the name of Jesus to be saved or for eternal life and then you can speak of not doing for reward."

I can speak of not doing for reward, because reward is not my motivation for doing good works. If God does reward me for what I've done that's His gift to give or withhold.

"You seek to condemn a man because he doesn't believe in the same manner as you but we are told that those who aren't against Him are on His part. Do you really think all branches are identical? They aren't."

Oh yeah, I forgot what a poor, victim Michael is because I disagree with him.

"And how does one conflate belief with lip service exactly? One is talking for show and acceptance of man, while the other is an utter desire to wholly conform and be changed to be found in the likeness of one's master; or to be found DOING upon the return of their Master."

How do you know which is which? I point to doing works for our neighbors because that's what Christians do, it's a fruit of faith. I do not ever say 'do good works to earn eternal life.'

"People too preoccupied with this life and the things there of remind me of the "friends" who begged to be excluded from the banquet or feast or wedding."

Alrighty then.

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popsthebuilder · Oct 14, 2019

zecryphon_nomdiv said:
"So you don't believe on the name of Jesus Christ that you will be saved?"

Show me where I said that.

"Explain your faith please. What do you believe?"

Click around here and you'll find out.

https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/#toggle-id-11

"Obviously you wouldn't think works or judgement at all is truth for you as you think you are already saved. The dude went over the scripture explaining that none has one the race until it is over. We all agree that good works are a product of faith; but you seem to think faith is a yes or no, an on or off."

Faith is a gift from God, not a decision as most people believe.

"Surely you do not deny that faith grows, nor do you deny the metric by which we are told to test the spirits and gauge ones faith; it's by their works."

That's horizontal justification, how we justify ourselves before other people.

"No one is saying their works make them righteous. They do the works because of the grace of GOD and reciprocal love for HIM known to them by HIS Christ and Word and Spirit."

Yeah, sure they're not. [emoji1787]

"Tell me you didn't proclaim the name of Jesus to be saved or for eternal life and then you can speak of not doing for reward."

I can speak of not doing for reward, because reward is not my motivation for doing good works. If God does reward me for what I've done that's His gift to give or withhold.

"You seek to condemn a man because he doesn't believe in the same manner as you but we are told that those who aren't against Him are on His part. Do you really think all branches are identical? They aren't."

Oh yeah, I forgot what a poor, victim Michael is because I disagree with him.

"And how does one conflate belief with lip service exactly? One is talking for show and acceptance of man, while the other is an utter desire to wholly conform and be changed to be found in the likeness of one's master; or to be found DOING upon the return of their Master."

How do you know which is which? I point to doing works for our neighbors because that's what Christians do, it's a fruit of faith. I do not ever say 'do good works to earn eternal life.'

"People too preoccupied with this life and the things there of remind me of the "friends" who begged to be excluded from the banquet or feast or wedding."

Alrighty then.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

So you admit to doing something for eternal reward; just not working for it. You think it is owed to you? Do you not believe in sanctification?

Faith is a gift from GOD; just like everything else we experience. Do you deny that faith grows?

Reward is not your motivation for doing good works, nor anyone elses. We do good because it is good. To help those in need because we have the GOD given potential to do so.

If one thinks they are already saved or guaranteed eternal life then what would keep them on the narrow path? I find more often than not that very many who claim to be saved now, regardless of knowing sin, don't employ the conscience, and even see a reason to consider it or their words or actions; as they don't think they will be judged. They can't grasp that their doctrine; upon inspection; paves the way for all sorts of evil by the hands of man. All sin is paid for; have a ball.

Why do you think Jesus said His burden was light and His yoke easy? Do you it's easy cuz it's no different from sinful living?

And maybe you are right about Micheal proclaiming to be without sin. Maybe i just missed it.

How do I know the difference? Easy; the fruit of the Spirit.

You won't ever find a verse telling you not to be kind or compassionate or merciful. You won't ever find a verse telling you that if one gives a coat to a freezing kid not expecting it back, or expecting any thing in return from any person, that that person is actually stealing from Christ. You will find the opposite though; that doing what is good to others without partiality is serving Christ. You will not find any verse saying that doing, that one might lay up for themselves; treasure in heaven is ever wrong or coming in from some other way.

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Michael · Oct 14, 2019

Words of Life

The Word of our Lord, which Peter said were the "Words of Eternal Life", can be very convicting at times.
Indeed the conditions He placed on those who would "come after Him" caused "many of His disciples to turn back and follow Him no more." (John 6:66)

Is His Word too much for us to bear? Of can we truly walk this road He says we must, if we are to found worthy?

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me."
- Matt 10:37-38

The many enjoyed the notion of being "saved", yet when Jesus instructed them on what they must do if they would "sit with Him on His Throne" in "His Father's Kingdom", the number of those committed to Him dwindled greatly.

I believe that most reading this have indeed been "saved." Saved from their bondage to sin as Israel was "saved" from bondage in Egypt.

God's question to us now is... will we "walk worthy" that we might inherit the promises of God that will be given only to "those who overcome"?

Friends, let us not "neglect so great a salvation" that we have received.

May we be among the few who "enter through the narrow gate into Life" and in the "rest of God."

For here alone is Tabernacles.

And that is the ultimate GOAL.

:ange06:

.

zecryphon_nomdiv · Oct 14, 2019

"So you admit to doing something for eternal reward; just not working for it. You think it is owed to you? Do you not believe in sanctification?'

No, I don't believe it is owed to me. Once more and pay attention this time because I neither have the time nor the crayons to keep explaining this over and over. I do good works as a result of my faith. If, did ya catch that? IF God should happen to give me a reward that is His choice. I am not doing good works in order to get a reward.

"Faith is a gift from GOD; just like everything else we experience. Do you deny that faith grows?"

Do you not read what I write?

“Reward is not your motivation for doing good works, nor anyone elses. We do good because it is good. To help those in need because we have the GOD given potential to do so.“

Michael has said numerous times that he does works in order to gain eternal life. I've even quoted this for you in past posts. But I guess you just refuse to see it.

"If one thinks they are already saved or guaranteed eternal life then what would keep them on the narrow path?"

The possible loss of salvation leaps to mind.

"I find more often than not that very many who claim to be saved now, regardless of knowing sin, don't employ the conscience, and even see a reason to consider it or their words or actions; as they don't think they will be judged. They can't grasp that their doctrine; upon inspection; paves the way for all sorts of evil by the hands of man. All sin is paid for; have a ball."

The Christian life is a life of daily repentance.

"Why do you think Jesus said His burden was light and His yoke easy? Do you it's easy cuz it's no different from sinful living?"

I've never said anything close to that and to prove it, please produce the statement where I said what you claim.

"And maybe you are right about Micheal proclaiming to be without sin. Maybe i just missed it."

Maybe.

"How do I know the difference? Easy; the fruit of the Spirit."

Which you can judge on an internet forum? Amazing!

“You won't ever find a verse telling you not to be kind or compassionate or merciful. You won't ever find a verse telling you that if one gives a coat to a freezing kid not expecting it back, or expecting any thing in return from any person, that that person is actually stealing from Christ. You will find the opposite though; that doing what is good to others without partiality is serving Christ. You will not find any verse saying that doing, that one might lay up for themselves; treasure in heaven is ever wrong or coming in from some other way.“

I've never claimed that I would find these verses. Why are you responding to things I've never said instead of responding to what I've actually said?

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Michael · Oct 14, 2019

And the World is watching. Many come to this site to see if there is anything real to this "Christian Faith" they've heard about. What do they see?

As well, we are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses." Indeed the angels, the Son,and the Father are watching us all, especially those who "claim His Name." God is looking to see if the Light of His Son is shining in us. Are we running our race well. Are we "conducting ourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ." (Phil 1:27)

Sadly, I believe the rebuke of the Apostle, and of the Lord Himself, would be to us, "you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?" (1Cor 3:3)

Paul said he was grieved that those in the church had not repented, and that when he came he would find "quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, slander, gossip, arrogance, and disorder." Sadly, he would find much of the same here as well.

Where are those "good works" that God desires from us?

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." - Matt 5:16

"Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation." - 1Pet 2:11-12

Again, I agree with Paul's prayer for the church, for us, "that we may be filled with the knowledge of God's will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that we will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God." (Col 1:9-10)

Amen.

:bible:

ray2:

RichWh1 · Oct 15, 2019

Andrew said:
In context I see, but I never heard of the law of sin, I hear of the lust of flesh but sin itself is technically lawlessness.

It’s mentioned in Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
The Mosaic Law is the Law of sin and death.

popsthebuilder · Oct 15, 2019

Thank you

peace

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popsthebuilder · Oct 15, 2019

zecryphon_nomdiv said:
"So you admit to doing something for eternal reward; just not working for it. You think it is owed to you? Do you not believe in sanctification?'

No, I don't believe it is owed to me. Once more and pay attention this time because I neither have the time nor the crayons to keep explaining this over and over. I do good works as a result of my faith. If, did ya catch that? IF God should happen to give me a reward that is His choice. I am not doing good works in order to get a reward.

"Faith is a gift from GOD; just like everything else we experience. Do you deny that faith grows?"

Do you not read what I write?

“Reward is not your motivation for doing good works, nor anyone elses. We do good because it is good. To help those in need because we have the GOD given potential to do so.“

Michael has said numerous times that he does works in order to gain eternal life. I've even quoted this for you in past posts. But I guess you just refuse to see it.

"If one thinks they are already saved or guaranteed eternal life then what would keep them on the narrow path?"

The possible loss of salvation leaps to mind.

"I find more often than not that very many who claim to be saved now, regardless of knowing sin, don't employ the conscience, and even see a reason to consider it or their words or actions; as they don't think they will be judged. They can't grasp that their doctrine; upon inspection; paves the way for all sorts of evil by the hands of man. All sin is paid for; have a ball."

The Christian life is a life of daily repentance.

"Why do you think Jesus said His burden was light and His yoke easy? Do you it's easy cuz it's no different from sinful living?"

I've never said anything close to that and to prove it, please produce the statement where I said what you claim.

"And maybe you are right about Micheal proclaiming to be without sin. Maybe i just missed it."

Maybe.

"How do I know the difference? Easy; the fruit of the Spirit."

Which you can judge on an internet forum? Amazing!

“You won't ever find a verse telling you not to be kind or compassionate or merciful. You won't ever find a verse telling you that if one gives a coat to a freezing kid not expecting it back, or expecting any thing in return from any person, that that person is actually stealing from Christ. You will find the opposite though; that doing what is good to others without partiality is serving Christ. You will not find any verse saying that doing, that one might lay up for themselves; treasure in heaven is ever wrong or coming in from some other way.“

I've never claimed that I would find these verses. Why are you responding to things I've never said instead of responding to what I've actually said?

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I apologise for bringing up logical conclusions to your own words and asking hard questions. I have been overly blunt and not very clear.

My point is that you indeed have done something for salvation, while you are knocking another for doing something to ensure his salvation and the safety of others according to scripture.

I'm not talking about you doing works for salvation. I'm trying to show you that you did something for salvation.

So you do not deny sanctifcation is a real thing, or that faith grows. Good. If one is sanctified then they will be doing good works. If one nurtures their faith then it will grow. How does ones faith grow? By doing according to belief, which is works, which are a product of faith.

I'm glad you seem to agree that one can loose the things once given if those things are cast aside or disregarded.

I never insinuated that I judge others over a forum. I've noticed others do such here though.

I was speaking of, and generally am speaking about judging one's own motives, words, and actions.

I do not compartmentalize things. That is why you will see me ask questions related to the topic, yet about things no one may have said outright. I believe sound logic to be important.

I apologise again for not devoting the energy to being more concise, and also for being vague and blunt. I am aware that you didnt say you would find the verses. It would be a fools errand. They aren't there. My point was to try and show that while some try to make a distinction between works done by the believer and works done by the believer that aren't pleasing to GOD; no such distinction is ever given in scripture. We are given the metric by which to judge. It is the nature of one's words and deeds. Not if one works for the sake of his master; as all servants do; but the works will show the persons master, or if they have two. To deny the significance of good works is to deny there is a metric given to judge such things. And when I say judge such things; I mean for self; inwardly.

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zecryphon_nomdiv · Oct 15, 2019

"I apologise for bringing up logical conclusions to your own words and asking hard questions. I have been overly blunt and not very clear."

They weren't logical conclusions or based on anything I said. That was the problem and I forgive you.

"My point is that you indeed have done something for salvation, while you are knocking another for doing something to ensure his salvation and the safety of others according to scripture."

What have I done?

“I'm not talking about you doing works for salvation. I'm trying to show you that you did something for salvation.“

No, that would violate Ephesians 2.

"So you do not deny sanctifcation is a real thing, or that faith grows. Good. If one is sanctified then they will be doing good works. If one nurtures their faith then it will grow. How does ones faith grow? By doing according to belief, which is works, which are a product of faith."

And they're also tainted by sin, so our works will never be good enough to earn us eternal life. Only through faith in Christ do we have eternal life and that gift is from God's grace, not our works.

"I'm glad you seem to agree that one can loose the things once given if those things are cast aside or disregarded."

Lutheranism is one of the few denominations that teaches this. Evangelism and others teach OSAS.

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