Is it not OK to be gay?

JoyFreak

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I know Christians frown upon homosexuals but is it really not OK to be gay? There are so many stories that Christians are very strict in this matter and some say it's all a load of crap. What is your thoughts?
 

MennoSota

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I think Rosaria Butterfield, a lesbian before being granted saving faith, is best equipped to answer this question.
From an interview:

An Unlikely Convert: An Interview with Rosaria*Butterfield

by*Rosaria Butterfield

Tabletalk: Your book is titled*The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. Could you explain some of your “secret thoughts,” and why you were an “unlikely*convert”?

Rosaria Butterfield:*I considered myself an atheist, having rejected my Catholic childhood and what I perceived to be the superstitions and illogic of the historic Christian faith. I found Christians to be difficult, sour, fearful, and intellectually unengaged people. In addition, since the age of twenty-eight, I had lived in monogamous lesbian relationships and politically supported*LGBT*causes. I coauthored Syracuse University’s first successful domestic partnership policy while working there as a professor of English and women’s studies. I was terrified to a�liate on any level with a worldview that called me, my life, my community, my scholarly interest, and my relationship sin. Add to this that I was working on a book “exposing” the religious right from a lesbian feminist point of view. I approached the Bible with an agenda to tear it down because I firmly believed that it was threatening, dangerous, and*irrational.

But when I came to Christ, I experienced what nineteenth-century Scottish theologian Thomas Chalmers called “the expulsive power of a new affection.” At the time of my conversion, my lesbian identity and feelings did not vanish. As my union with Christ grew, the sanctification that it birthed put a wedge between my old self and my new one. In time, this contradiction exploded, and I was able to claim identity in Christ*alone.

TT: How has your story been received by*Christians?

RB:*The protagonist of*Secret Thoughts*is Pastor Ken Smith, who modeled to me organic Christian hospitality and the life-sustaining action of neighboring. Christian readers have responded to Ken’s example and have been encouraged by*it.

TT: How has your conversion to Christianity been received by your former*colleagues?

RB:*At the time of my conversion, my colleagues and students treated me with suspicion and confusion. Understandably, many friends felt betrayed, exposed, and criticized by my conversion and the changes in heart, life, and writing that this produced. When a person comes to Christ and repents of sin, this turning around makes enemies out of former allies. And while this aftershock eventually led to Bible studies and many opportunities to share the gospel, it also destroyed friendships and allegiances. The exclusivity of Christ has rugged*consequences.

TT: How do you respond to someone who says that one can continue to live a homosexual lifestyle and yet also be a*Christian?

RB:*First, I always start by asking for clarification about what she means by “Christian,” often requesting that she share her testimony (and offering to share mine as well). She may tell me that she is a Christian because she believes in Jesus and said the sinner’s prayer at a certain moment in her childhood. She also may tell me that she has a “high view” of Scripture and believes that the historic Christian church has misrepresented the issue of homosexuality. As I listen, I pray for the Lord to give me not only the words to say, but a transparent kindness that can uphold the weight of these words. I say I am glad that she believes in Jesus, but I share that the Bible calls for more than that, as even the trembling demons believe in Jesus. The Bible defines a Christian in a fuller way, including an understanding*that:

(1) God set me apart from before the foundations of the*world.

(2) The Holy Spirit removed my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh, leaving me with justifying*faith.

(3) Jesus Christ infuses sanctifying grace through His hard-wrought love and*blood.

(4) Repentance and belief go together, as both are gifts of God and fruit of Christian living. Without repentance there is no*salvation.

Sometimes at this point in the conversation, she will ask me where she might meet this Jesus, because this is a different Jesus than the one that she knows. We open the Bible together, and I invite her to my house for dinner and church. Alternatively, if she tells me that she just interprets the Bible differently than I do, I then discuss how Jesus is inseparable from the Bible, and how the Bible is a unified revelation of God, fully true, inspired, and inerrant. At some point, if God allows, I suggest that we start reading the Bible together, reading systematically and not*topically.

As you can see, I do not ask my questioner about why she identifies as lesbian or what this means to her, or when she first felt like a lesbian or had her first sexual experience. It is not that I don’t care, but if I start with*her, I start in the wrong place. Instead, I start with the triune God, and call out the soul-orientation of any person with whom I*speak.

TT: What is the biggest misconception that evangelicals have about those who are a part of the “homosexual*community”?

RB:*Reformed Christians know that God’s elect people are everywhere, but one big misconception evangelicals have is the wholesale writing off of all people who identify as gay as God-hating reprobates. Another misconception is that a person’s homosexuality is the biggest and most life-defining sin of her life. When Ken Smith, the pastor the Lord used in my conversion, first met me, he knew that being a lesbian was not my biggest sin. My biggest sin was that I was an*unbeliever.

TT: What counsel would you give to Christians as they attempt to preach the gospel to those who experience same-sex*attraction?

RB:*First, we need to apologize for “gay jokes” that we said or condoned in*silence.

Next, we must: (1) counsel people who have repented from homosexual sexual pasts and feel called to heterosexual marriage; (2) encourage people who live daily with unwanted homosexual desires and feel called through justifying faith to celibacy, helping these brothers and sisters to resist temptation, secure accountability, and rely on the Word and on the fellowship of the saints to renew minds and affections; (3) lift the unearned burden of guilt off of the parents of children who identity as gay or lesbian; and (4) create meaningful community from within the membership of the church. To offer intentional commitment to members who are lonely and isolated, the church must demonstrate in everyday ways how we care for each other from cradle to grave. In the*LGBT*community in the 1990s, I learned the power of accompanied suffering, of standing together in grief as we faced the*AIDSvirus. The hospitality gifts I use today as a pastor’s wife, I honed in my*LGBT*community.

Pastorally, the Westminster Standards give us much wisdom about sanctification and offer helpful correctives to the unbiblical teachings of our day. It is important to tell people who struggle with sexual sin that their struggle is not proof that God is not working sanctification in them, because God knows that sanctification is both imperfect and incomplete in this lifetime. For the church to lovingly counsel those who experience unwanted homosexual desire, she must steer clear of parachurch ministries that hold to a false understanding of sanctification (that it is complete in this lifetime) or an over-actualized eschatology (that God wants you to experience perfection this side of the second coming). The Reformed church is much more competent to counsel because of the systematic theology that informs our understanding of law and*grace.

Continued...
 

MennoSota

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TT: What three things would you tell a Christian young person who is experiencing same-sex attraction and is tempted to selfidentify as a*homosexual?

RB:*(1) Don’t embrace labels that God doesn’t use. God does not rank-order His beloved sons and daughters. If you are a believer, then your identity is in Christ and Christ alone. Memorize*Colossians 3:1–4, remembering that “you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God” (v. 3). Meditate on what it means to take refuge in Christ. And remember that union with Christ and the communion of the saints go together, so don’t*isolate.

(2) As you practice the ordinary means of grace—Bible reading, psalm singing, taking the sacraments—do so with the communion of the saints. Don’t isolate. Be a fully present member of your church. If you struggle with unwanted homosexual desires, tell your pastor, elders, and friends so that they know how to pray for you and love you. But don’t think that the fact of these feelings makes you a dangerous person. A dangerous person is someone who either does not know what sin pattern percolates within him or foolishly believes that if he hides it, he is controlling*it.

(3) Know your enemy. Unwanted homosexual desire is not the unforgivable sin. It is a vestige of the fall, and as such, is a vestige of original sin, the ultimate “pre-existing” condition. Daily, I ask the Lord:*Lord, how has my original sin distorted me, how is my indwelling sin manipulating me, and how is Satan enlisting me?*Your temptation pattern does not define you, but you must be armed for the battle, knowing that victory is promised, in God’s timing, incomplete but powerful here on earth, and complete and full in*eternity.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/unlikely-convert/
 

tango

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I know Christians frown upon homosexuals but is it really not OK to be gay? There are so many stories that Christians are very strict in this matter and some say it's all a load of crap. What is your thoughts?

I think a lot depends on just what you mean by "be gay". That might sound like semantic gymnastics but roll with me.

Strictly speaking, "being gay" merely means being sexually attracted to members of your own sex. In that regard being gay is not sinful - it's no more sinful for a man to be attracted to another man than it is for him to be attracted to another man's wife. It's a form of temptation but what matters is what we do when tempted.

When you start talking about physical homosexual activity things get thornier. It's much easier to find verses in Scripture that prohibit it, and there's at least some support in the New Testament that strengthens the case that the rule still applies.

The thing with verses from the Old Testament that prohibit all sorts of things is that we need to have an objective means of determining which of them were specific to the ancient Israelites and which are still relevant today. Lots of people freely throw around verses from Leviticus that prohibit things they don't want to do, while ignoring verses that prohibit the things they do want to do. So, for example, someone may be quick to quote the verse that says "you shall not lie with a man as with a woman" but overlook the verses that prohibit eating shellfish, trimming the edges of our beards, wearing clothes of mixed fibers and so on. It's important to look for something more objective than ignoring the verses we find inconvenient and typically a good way of doing it is to figure whether prohibitions are mentioned in the New Testament and, if so, whether that mention is in the context of revoking the prohibition, clarifying it, repeating it etc.

The most obvious mention of homosexual activity in the NT seems to be in Romans 1, talking about men burning with desire for each other and women "forsaking the natural order".

One issue these days is that people, particularly gay people, seem increasingly prone to define themselves by their sexuality. It's as if people struggle to do anything without "being gay" first and foremost. And yet, as has been mentioned in another thread, if we are Christians then we should be Christians first and foremost, and everything else takes second place to that. Jesus said that if we would follow him we should deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow. The cross we take up will be different for different people - for some it might be poverty, for others it might be celibacy.

I personally know a man who is gay in the sense that he is attracted to other men but, as a Christian, he believes it would be sinful to act on his desires so he remains celibate. It's hard to have anything other than respect for his stance - he is aware of his temptations and, despite so much of the world telling him it's just fine to be whatever he wants to be, he chooses to deny himself because he puts Jesus first.
 

hedrick

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The OP starts "I know Christians frown upon homosexuals but is it really not OK to be gay? "

In fact Christian views vary. Majorities of Catholic, EO, historically black Protestant, and mainline Protestants in the US think it's acceptable. A majority reject it only among Evangelicals, Mormons, and JWs. (Note that Mormons and JWs are not considered to be Christian by many mainstream Christians.) Online forums such as this one tend to have relatively conservative populations, so a reader who doesn't know what's going on could easily conclude that all Christians reject homosexuality when they don't.

I'm a mainline Protestant. We normally accept guidance from medicine and social science to the extent that it's relevant. Hence we accept that there are people who are attracted primarily to members of the same gender. Now the question becomes, what should they do about it? Paul tells us that being celibate is a specific gift, and that if you don't have it, you're better off getting married. I apply that to gays as well. I don't think that having a homosexual orientation automatically means you have the gift to be celibate.

OT Biblical passages on this subject are irrelevant, since we don't follow other OT laws of the same sort.

Paul is sometimes quoted as saying things about homosexuality, but he really didn't. Rom 1 says that pagans are led to immoral behavior, including turning from their natural desires to those of the same sex. But this is clearly a discussion of abusive sex. The standard Jewish polemic against pagans said that when they got tired of promiscuous sex with the opposite sex, they moved on to their own. This does not describe gay Christians.

1 Cor 6:9 uses words whose meaning isn't clear, but probably at least one refers to at least one form of same-sex behavior. It's a bad idea to derive a doctrine from one word. Without further explanation, it's safest to assume that Paul is referring to the same thing as in Rom 1.

-----

What I've just given is the most traditional reading. In fact I'd consider going even further. Rom 1 ff is written in "diatribe" style. Part of that style involves quoting your opponent and then arguing against it. Rom 2:2 is an obvious quote from Rom 1:32, rejecting it. This suggests strongly that Rom 1:18-32 is actually a view that Paul is rejecting. Rom 1:18-32 is a standard Jewish attack against pagans, claiming that they are inherently immoral. But Rom 2 rejects that, suggesting that pagans often follow God's will, even though they don't have the Law. It's part of Paul's argument that Greeks and Jews are in essentially the same condition. Rom 1:18-32 doesn't fit into Paul's argument as his own opinion. If it were just saying that pagans are often guilty of sin it might, but it says that being a pagan inherently leads to immorality, a view that Paul rejects, just as he rejects the view that Jews are inherently moral.

As to 1 Cor 6:9, many commentators today believe that two of the words there refer specifically to "active" and "passive" homosexuals. No doubt people in the 1st Cent were much like people today. But the way people thought about and spoke about sexuality was different. Today we don't think there's any ethical difference between someone who is a "top" or a "bottom." But in the 1st Cent it was considered unacceptable for a free adult to play the passive role. By definition this meant that a free adult always had to had a partner who wasn't, typically a child or slave. The most detailed treatment I've read of the subject notes that moderns have been overly influenced by a description in Plato, of a wonderful relationship between mentor and student, which included sex. In fact the reality was a lot more sordid, and parents did not accept the idea of their children being used that way. If Paul is in fact distinguishing between active and passive partners, he's referring to type of relationship that today we'd consider abusive.

Note that I'm not claiming that Paul knew of modern gay marriages and accepted them. Clearly he did not. But I also think he had in mind specific things, and they don't match today's gay Christians.
 
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JRT

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From all indications, opposition to same sex marriage will remain a controversial topic in American society for some time to come. Many of its opponents will continue to reference the Bible to buttress their arguments. But by now it should be clear that such claims only stand up to scrutiny if they willfully ignore translational issues and the crucial considerations of historical and social context. For as we have seen, the passages used to support the widely held belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful are far too ambiguous and far too open to dispute for anyone to be able to declare with anything like certainty -- or integrity -- that the Bible conclusively condemns it. The evidence is simply too slim to be the determining factor of anyone's happiness and life-chances, much less the life-chances of millions of people. And if homosexuality cannot be conclusively proven to be a biblical sin, there can be no biblical basis for condemning marriage equality as sinful. To put it quite plainly, one may oppose marriage equality on other grounds, but no one can rightfully use the Bible to do so.

The paraphrase above of Chief Justice Earl Warren's 1958 Trop v. Dulles opinion challenges our society to evolve its standards of decency. The Court's ruling that all Americans have the legal right to marry the spouse of their choice is a welcome answer to that challenge. After all, is that not what the Bible means when it tells us to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

As for the Kim Davises and Mike Huckabees of the world, I accept that they are sincere in their belief that the Bible unequivocally declares homosexuality and same sex marriage to be sinful. They just happen to be sincerely wrong.
 

tango

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From all indications, opposition to same sex marriage will remain a controversial topic in American society for some time to come. Many of its opponents will continue to reference the Bible to buttress their arguments. But by now it should be clear that such claims only stand up to scrutiny if they willfully ignore translational issues and the crucial considerations of historical and social context. For as we have seen, the passages used to support the widely held belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful are far too ambiguous and far too open to dispute for anyone to be able to declare with anything like certainty -- or integrity -- that the Bible conclusively condemns it. The evidence is simply too slim to be the determining factor of anyone's happiness and life-chances, much less the life-chances of millions of people. And if homosexuality cannot be conclusively proven to be a biblical sin, there can be no biblical basis for condemning marriage equality as sinful. To put it quite plainly, one may oppose marriage equality on other grounds, but no one can rightfully use the Bible to do so.

The paraphrase above of Chief Justice Earl Warren's 1958 Trop v. Dulles opinion challenges our society to evolve its standards of decency. The Court's ruling that all Americans have the legal right to marry the spouse of their choice is a welcome answer to that challenge. After all, is that not what the Bible means when it tells us to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

As for the Kim Davises and Mike Huckabees of the world, I accept that they are sincere in their belief that the Bible unequivocally declares homosexuality and same sex marriage to be sinful. They just happen to be sincerely wrong.

As far as what the secular state allows the Bible needs to play a minimal role in those decisions. The last thing we need is for one specific holy book to be interpreted by a very small group of people and then imposed upon everybody by force of law. As Christians it's sometimes tempting to wish more of the Bible could be enshrined in law but if we allow the Bible to be enshrined in law today what stops the Quran or the Gita being enshrined in law tomorrow?

If Americans are allowed to marry the spouse of their choice, should there be any restrictions at all? Should the spouse of their choice be of a certain age, or even a certain species? It's easy to argue that consenting adults should be allowed to enter into a secular contract recognised by the secular government but at what point should someone be allowed to give such consent? Given the way teenagers are sexually mature at ever-earlier ages (when I was first learning about "the birds and the bees" from what I was led to believe girls didn't typically start their menstrual cycles until age 13-14, but now I'm reliably informed it's far from rare for them to start at age 10 if not earlier still), should they be allowed to marry younger?

With respect, about all you've done here is quote an opinion and then act as if it provided proof that an opposing opinion is categorically wrong. For myself I'm inclined to believe that homosexual acts are sinful (which need to be differentiated from homosexual desires, as I explained in a previous post) but still see no reason why a gay couple shouldn't enjoy the secular benefits offered within the context of what secular society calls "marriage".
 

MennoSota

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Unrepentant sinners are unrepentant sinners. It is their norm.
I would never harp on my friends who are gay about their sexual lusts. They don't want anything to do with God. I will talk about my faith in God. I will speak about humans and our rebellion against God and his moral laws. I will speak about reconciliation with God. If they ask to hear more about reconciliation with God, I will tell them. But, I won't condemn them for doing what their sinful hearts naturally do when they are still in rebellion to God.
For Christians who are struggling with same sex attractions and read the scriptures so that they recognize their acting upon attractions is wrong (lustful), I point them toward brothers and sisters like Christopher Yuan and Rosaria Butterfield who can speak to their journey and their conviction to obey God rather than obey their sinful nature. What they have to say applies to both homosexual and heterosexual relationships. They read God's word and accept it as truth, without trying to excuse it. Something that hendricks fails to do as a/he summarily tosses out verses s/he doesn't like or thinks to be irrelevant.
 

Arsenios

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I know Christians frown upon homosexuals...

OK - So do I know homosexuals frown upon Christians??

Is this really how you want to talk about homosexuals and Christians?

A Christian Life is centered on living and doing God's will...

What is a homosexual life centered on?

One's sexual desires do not define the person...

I mean, what is a heterosexual life centered on?

If you center your life on sex, you will have a life of sex...

If you center your life on God, you will have a life of God...

Life is this kind of a choice and decision...

Forget hypocritical judgmentalism on either side...

That way leads nowhere...

May God Bless your journey!


Arsenios
 
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