a multitude from the Great Tribulation

NewCreation435 · May 21, 2019

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
Revelaton 7:9-10

I've heard most of my christian life that the next thing to happen in eschatology is the rapture of the church. The thought crossed my mind that if the church is raptured then where did this multitude come from from every nation that were martyrs for the faith and lived through the great tribulation? Verses 13-14 make it clear that these were from the great tribulation

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelations 7:13-14.

Any thoughts?

atpollard · May 21, 2019

The traditional "Dispensation" response is that the Church is removed, the veil/hardening is removed from Israel (biological Jews). The suddenly Messianic Jews and the Two Witnesses that cannot be killed lead many to Jesus during the Tribulation. These people are the martyrs (mostly the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Rev 7). Then Jesus returns for the Millennial kingdom.

The traditional "Amillenial" response is the Church is not removed, we are killed and stacked like cords of firewood in the Great Tribulation, and Jesus returns to kick butt, take names and usher in the new "heaven and earth".

psalms 91 · May 21, 2019

I go with the first scenerio you mentioned

atpollard · May 21, 2019

psalms 91 said:
I go with the first scenerio you mentioned

Each view has challenges.
For Dispensationalism ... Just how many times is Jesus returning in the sky to gather the Church and give them all new bodies?
1. the Pre-Trib Rapture.
2. Post Trib return with Martyrs.
3. After the 1000 year reign and Armageddon ... in the new heaven and earth.

NewCreation435 · May 21, 2019

atpollard said:
The traditional "Dispensation" response is that the Church is removed, the veil/hardening is removed from Israel (biological Jews). The suddenly Messianic Jews and the Two Witnesses that cannot be killed lead many to Jesus during the Tribulation. These people are the martyrs (mostly the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Rev 7). Then Jesus returns for the Millennial kingdom.

The traditional "Amillenial" response is the Church is not removed, we are killed and stacked like cords of firewood in the Great Tribulation, and Jesus returns to kick butt, take names and usher in the new "heaven and earth".

The problem I have with that is that it says in verse 9 of chapter 7 in Revelations says that it is a number no one could count and also that they were from every tribe and nation. They aren't just Jewish and they aren't just 144,000.
The idea of actually being on the earth at the time is also scary to say the least.

atpollard · May 21, 2019

jsimms435 said:
The problem I have with that is that it says in verse 9 of chapter 7 in Revelations says that it is a number no one could count and also that they were from every tribe and nation. They aren't just Jewish and they aren't just 144,000.
The idea of actually being on the earth at the time is also scary to say the least.

Sorry, my bad. I generally hate Eschatology and avoid it, so I am not that sharp on some of the small details (like exact numbers).
The 144,000 are the Messianic Jews who lead the unbelievers left behind to Jesus, the Messiah. There are MANY more martyrs.
(I may be confusing it with another Rev passage, but I seem to remember something about the witnesses being celibate men).

Anyway, that is the Dispensation view.

The other view (Amillenial) has us living in that period now with THIS being the “Millennial Reign” of Christ (His Body, the Church) on Earth and the disasters coming at the end just before Jesus returns to bring us all home. Satan is already bound and powerless over the people of God, but the World already hates us and is killing us.

I have no personal opinion. I plan on just waiting to see how it all turns out and roll with whatever God does.

NewCreation435 · May 22, 2019

atpollard said:
Sorry, my bad. I generally hate Eschatology and avoid it, so I am not that sharp on some of the small details (like exact numbers).
The 144,000 are the Messianic Jews who lead the unbelievers left behind to Jesus, the Messiah. There are MANY more martyrs.
(I may be confusing it with another Rev passage, but I seem to remember something about the witnesses being celibate men).

Anyway, that is the Dispensation view.

The other view (Amillenial) has us living in that period now with THIS being the “Millennial Reign” of Christ (His Body, the Church) on Earth and the disasters coming at the end just before Jesus returns to bring us all home. Satan is already bound and powerless over the people of God, but the World already hates us and is killing us.

I have no personal opinion. I plan on just waiting to see how it all turns out and roll with whatever God does.

I noticed on this forum there seems to be a lack of interest in eschatology for some reason. Not sure why that is.

psalms 91 · May 22, 2019

jsimms435 said:
I noticed on this forum there seems to be a lack of interest in eschatology for some reason. Not sure why that is.

Not either, that has always been something i am interested in

Andrew · May 23, 2019

jsimms435 said:
I noticed on this forum there seems to be a lack of interest in eschatology for some reason. Not sure why that is.

I started a thread about death, sheol, judgment and resurrection and so on ("What early Christians believed about Life after Death") doesn't seem to be a very popular topic

Pedrito · May 23, 2019

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Post #6:

The other view (Amillenial) has us living in that period now with THIS being the “Millennial Reign” of Christ (His Body, the Church) on Earth and the disasters coming at the end just before Jesus returns to bring us all home. Satan is already bound and powerless over the people of God...

I’ve heard it said that if Satan is currently bound, he has a very long chain.

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atpollard · May 23, 2019

Pedrito said:
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Post #6:

I’ve heard it said that if Satan is currently bound, he has a very long chain.

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That was funny, and pretty close to my reaction when I heard it.

Now search for references to Satan controlling people prior to the Crucifixion (like Judas at the Last Supper), and then try to find a reference to Satan controlling someone after the Crucifixion. That was what the advocates pointed out to me (and they appear to have a valid observation).

They would claim that Satan now only works through his demonic minions.

Pedrito · Jun 4, 2019

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Post #11:

That was funny, and pretty close to my reaction when I heard it.

Now search for references to Satan controlling people prior to the Crucifixion (like Judas at the Last Supper), and then try to find a reference to Satan controlling someone after the Crucifixion. That was what the advocates pointed out to me (and they appear to have a valid observation).

They would claim that Satan now only works through his demonic minions.

2 Corinthians 4:3,4:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That seems to indicate an ongoing, direct interference with human thought processes.

But I could be wrong.

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atpollard · Jun 7, 2019

Pedrito said:
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Post #11:

2 Corinthians 4:3,4:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That seems to indicate an ongoing, direct interference with human thought processes.

But I could be wrong.

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Would that “blinding” be an active work (like demonic possession), or a passive work (like the rampant pornography to feed our natural lusts of the flesh)?

Pedrito · Jun 8, 2019

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Post #13:

Would that “blinding” be an active work (like demonic possession), or a passive work (like the rampant pornography to feed our natural lusts of the flesh)?

I see it from a third perspective.

“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,...” appears to be a very active work, prompted by a very definite purpose: “...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

It would seem that the human mind is the prize, and that whatever natural weaknesses a person may have, become the target points for establishing by deception, aberrant vectors that hold the mind captive. Think of David and Bathsheba, as a general for instance.

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Satan is the Great Deceiver. And in the vein of a worldwide anti-American political movement of several years ago, he loves to infiltrate and destroy from within. Look at the way he has splintered the churches and teachings of Christendom. And look at the way politics and rival cliques mar many local and extended congregations.

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I suggest that the blinding could be so pervasive that it is often not recognised for what it is. It is simply part of the “status quo”. And anyone who tries to point that out and to prompt people to do something about it, can find themselves in hot water for upsetting the applecart (so to speak).

Satan: 1 ... Churchianity: 0

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NewCreation435 · Jun 8, 2019

atpollard said:
That was funny, and pretty close to my reaction when I heard it.

Now search for references to Satan controlling people prior to the Crucifixion (like Judas at the Last Supper), and then try to find a reference to Satan controlling someone after the Crucifixion. That was what the advocates pointed out to me (and they appear to have a valid observation).

They would claim that Satan now only works through his demonic minions.

1 Peter 5:8
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

devouring doesn't sound very passive to me

Arsenios · Jun 8, 2019

atpollard said:
Anyway, that is the Dispensation view.

The other view (Amillenial) has us living in that period now...

I have no personal opinion.

The historic Apostolic Church sees Revelation as amillennial...

There WAS a thousand year rule from Constantinople that did bind Satan on earth,
which ended with the Ottoman Turks conquering the Roman Empire (of the East) in the 1400s...

And we are now in a period of increasing tribulations...

But the Biblical kicker that has me in awe is Christ's words in John regarding John himself:

Joh 21:20-24
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following;
which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, "Lord, and what shall this man do?"
Jesus saith unto him, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die:
yet Jesus said not unto him, "He shall not die"; but,
"If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things:
and we know that his testimony is true.

Followed by:

Luk 21:32
"Verily I say unto you,
This generation shall not pass away,
till all be fulfilled."

I often think that the lives of Christ, the Theotokos, and John
Were sufficient for the Salvation of the Kosmos...
And that the Salvation of the rest of us is but a Holy and Divine gratuity...
And Revelation tells us what we are up against...

That Revelation is more than the future history of God's people...
It is as well a roadmap of each person's journey...
That it is fulfilled in each lifetime lived in Christ...
And also describes the Age in which we live...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jun 8, 2019

Pedrito said:
Satan: 1 ...
Churchianity: 0

Churchianity is ALWAYS zero...

Churchianity is Satan's supporter...

Unbeknownst to the Churchies...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jun 8, 2019

atpollard said:
Would that “blinding” be an active work (like demonic possession), or a passive work (like the rampant pornography to feed our natural lusts of the flesh)?

It is a work of deception willingly engaged by those who love sin...

Demonic possession is a fairly spectacular instance...

Ritual Satanic murdering is perhaps its priesthood...

Natural fleshly diversions its cover story...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jun 8, 2019

atpollard said:
Now search for references to Satan controlling people prior to the Crucifixion (like Judas at the Last Supper),
and then try to find a reference to Satan controlling someone after the Crucifixion.
That was what the advocates pointed out to me (and they appear to have a valid observation).

They would claim that Satan now only works through his demonic minions.

There are tons of such instances...

The woman with the spirit of divination that Paul expelled after getting vexed with her incessant prattling...

Exorcisms are common in the Ancient Faith...

Unless I am misunderstanding you...??

eg What is meant by a "demonic minion"?

Arsenios

Pedrito · Jun 12, 2019

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Post #5:

The problem I have with that is that it says in verse 9 of chapter 7 in Revelations says that it is a number no one could count and also that they were from every tribe and nation. They aren't just Jewish and they aren't just 144,000.

It is probably wise to be aware that the book of Revelation is largely (at least) a book of symbols.

It is also true that asking the right question can sometimes clarify a quandary, even if the answer to the question depends upon our scurrying back into the Scriptures with our sleeves rolled up, to do some digging.

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1. The list of tribes comprising the 144,000 is fictitious. Blind Freddy can see that. Therefore the list refers to something other than Jews. And probably other than a literal number. The question is: what could that be?

2. What about the people said to be from “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” – really? “All nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues”? The question is: at what point in history is this “all” referring to? Do those classifications include scattered people alive in Abraham’s day? Do they include the Amalekites whom God ordered wiped out completely? What about people alive before the Flood – are they included? Should it be restricted to “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” alive when Jesus died and rose Again? What about those that were wiped out before the Gospel reached any of their people?

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The precise and unequivocal answers to those two questions, lead to other supposed “difficulties” disintegrating before our eyes, and the Simple, Original, Apostolic Gospel becoming more clearly understood. Although until it is acknowledged that within Holy Scripture, no uncontrived basis can be found for the idea that an independent, conscious, spirit-natured “soul” survives human death, then not much progress can be made. More’s the pity.

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I can’t find it now, but I have seen where one church council defined the soul and the spirit to be the same. (Help please, someone?)

We are commonly told that at death, a person has a soul that goes either to the righteous side of Hades (or directly to Heaven as some would say), or to the unrighteous side, depending. Yet Ecclesiastes 12:7 states unequivocally that “...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”, which apparently includes the spirits of the righteous and the spirits of the unrighteous without differentiation.

Which source should I believe?

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a multitude from the Great Tribulation

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Matt 18:15

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