Can you lose your salvation?

atpollard said:

Judas is always a hard case to wrap my hands around and come up with a definitive answer from scripture.
On the one hand ...

[Mar 3:14-15 NASB] 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He [could] send them out to preach, 15 and to have authority to cast out the demons.


And on the other hand ...

[Jhn 6:70 NASB] 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?"

[Jhn 17:12 NASB] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

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Romans 9:17-24
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

atpollard said:

Kinda, sorta, almost ... if you squint:

[1Jo 2:19 NASB] 19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

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I gave your post a like because I reckon that one MUST squint really hard to get that result from the verse you quoted.

:smirk:

jsimms435 said:

I have never been to a funeral where the pastor or preacher would say that the person wasn't saved.

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My experience is the same. I might add, I've been to several Catholic funerals and NOT ONCE was Purgatory mentioned, always "Our loved one IS in HEAVEN." Funny how Lutheran pastors can be at funerals....


BUT I've not been to a Calvinist funeral. Perhaps they would stress, "Because we choose to hold that on May 22, 1948, our loved one had REAL faith, GENUINE faith, QUALITY faith - he is in heaven even though every day since then he has been a Buddhist monk who consistantly has repudiated Christ as Savior, cuz if one ONCE had faith, they are ALWAYS saved." I have a hunch Calvinist ministers aren't Calvinists at funerals.



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atpollard said:

Kinda, sorta, almost ... if you squint:

[1Jo 2:19 NASB] 19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

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Fine print, my Dear...

Fine print...

The point is they did NOT remain, yes?


Arsenios

atpollard said:

Judas is always a hard case to wrap my hands around and come up with a definitive answer from scripture.
On the one hand ...

[Mar 3:14-15 NASB] 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He [could] send them out to preach, 15 and to have authority to cast out the demons.


And on the other hand ...

[Jhn 6:70 NASB] 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?"

[Jhn 17:12 NASB] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

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He had his Salvation, but being the son of perdition, he then betrayed Christ and lost it...

Nor did he repent...

He departed and did not remain...

Unlike Peter, who did not betray Christ, but denied Him, and repented and was restored, having remained...


Arsenios

Josiah said:

My experience is the same. I might add, I've been to several Catholic funerals and NOT ONCE was Purgatory mentioned, always "Our loved one IS in HEAVEN."

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...and yet the official Catholic teaching has it that this would be virtually impossible. For certain, what you report could not be said routinely and have it be in step with the church's teachings.

Josiah said:

I've been to several Catholic funerals
and NOT ONCE was Purgatory mentioned,
always "Our loved one IS in HEAVEN."

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Perhaps MC might chime in...

At a mass for my friend, the homily was dedicated to a reasonably faithful rendition of his life - He was not all that faithful until he started dying of prostrate cancer - Yet I did not hear the prayers of absolution - I might have missed them...

The Orthodox do not celebrate a person's life at the funeral service...
We pray the Psalms, all 150 of them, in shifts, during an all night vigil...
With the unembalmed body in the Nave of the Church before the Altar of God...
Third day they are in the earth in a wooden coffin...

Here is our prayer for the departed:

O God of spirits and of all flesh,
Who hast trampled down death
and overthrown the Devil,
and given life to Thy world,
do Thou, the same Lord,
give rest to the soul(s)
of Thy departed servant(s)
in a place of brightness,
a place of refreshment,
a place of repose,
where all sickness, sighing, and sorrow
have fled away.

Pardon every transgression which they have committed,
whether by word or deed or thought.

For Thou art a good God and lovest mankind;
because there is no man who lives yet does not sin,
for Thou only art without sin,
Thy righteousness is to all eternity,
and Thy word is truth.

For Thou are the Resurrection, the Life, and the Repose
of Thy servants who have fallen asleep, O Christ our God,
and unto Thee we ascribe glory,
together with Thy Father, who is from everlasting,
and Thine all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit,
now and ever unto ages of ages.

Amen.

We pray to God for the forgiveness of their every transgression,
whether by thought or word or deed,
whether in knowledge or in ignorance,
whether by commission or omission...

At the Service, the Priest
who has the Apostolic Power to bind and loose sins,
releases all sins from soul of the departed...
We take death seriously...

In this fallen life, death is the enemy...
And in Christ death is overcome...
Death is NOT natural...
And we are all appointed to die once...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Perhaps MC might chime in...

At a mass for my friend, the homily was dedicated to a reasonably faithful rendition of his life - He was not all that faithful until he started dying of prostrate cancer - Yet I did not hear the prayers of absolution - I might have missed them...

The Orthodox do not celebrate a person's life at the funeral service...
We pray the Psalms, all 150 of them, in shifts, during an all night vigil...
With the unembalmed body in the Nave of the Church before the Altar of God...
Third day they are in the earth in a wooden coffin...

Here is our prayer for the departed:

O God of spirits and of all flesh,
Who hast trampled down death
and overthrown the Devil,
and given life to Thy world,
do Thou, the same Lord,
give rest to the soul(s)
of Thy departed servant(s)
in a place of brightness,
a place of refreshment,
a place of repose,
where all sickness, sighing, and sorrow
have fled away.

Pardon every transgression which they have committed,
whether by word or deed or thought.

For Thou art a good God and lovest mankind;
because there is no man who lives yet does not sin,
for Thou only art without sin,
Thy righteousness is to all eternity,
and Thy word is truth.

For Thou are the Resurrection, the Life, and the Repose
of Thy servants who have fallen asleep, O Christ our God,
and unto Thee we ascribe glory,
together with Thy Father, who is from everlasting,
and Thine all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit,
now and ever unto ages of ages.

Amen.

We pray to God for the forgiveness of their every transgression,
whether by thought or word or deed,
whether in knowledge or in ignorance,
whether by commission or omission...

At the Service, the Priest
who has the Apostolic Power to bind and loose sins,
releases all sins from soul of the departed...
We take death seriously...

In this fallen life, death is the enemy...
And in Christ death is overcome...
Death is NOT natural...
And we are all appointed to die once...


Arsenios

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Kinda sounds like you should have praying for him before he died rather than afterward. Nothing you can do after death.
David mourned for his sick infant son in hopes God would heal. Upon the child's death he turned from mourning to assert that he would one day see his child again.
Pray while they still breathe.

jsimms435 said:

So your saying that God didn't know that he would eventually betray Jesus and fall away? Yet, Jesus told Judas at the last supper what he would do and it wasn't a surprise to him

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God knew, yes...

But His foreknowledge did not cause Judas to betray Christ...

Thinking so is a common error...

Judas was free to keep on stealing from the money box and he did...

He was also free to stop, or to seek Christ for help with stealing...

He did not, and God knew he would not...

Foreknowledge is not predestination...


Arsenios

MennoSota said:

Kinda sounds like you should have been praying for him before he died rather than afterward.

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We do both...

Nothing you can do after death.

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The son of man has authority to forgive sins...

We pray for our dead in Christ as they die and after they die...

You will have to show me the passage that says there is nothing we can attain by our prayers for the dead...

David mourned for his sick infant son in hopes God would heal.
Upon the child's death he turned from mourning to assert that he would one day see his child again.
Pray while they still breathe.

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We live in prayer, my Brother...

When the widow's son died, Prophet Elijah prayed for him, remember...??

You cannot tell us that when someone is dead our prayers are of no effect...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

We do both...



The son of man has authority to forgive sins...

We pray for our dead in Christ as they die and after they die...

You will have to show me the passage that says there is nothing we can attain by our prayers for the dead...



We live in prayer, my Brother...

When the widow's son died, Prophet Elijah prayed for him, remember...??

You cannot tell us that when someone is dead our prayers are of no effect...


Arsenios

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Ezekiel has authority to forgive sins? [emoji57]

When we are dead, our grace period is over. We are judged either guilty due to our lawbreaking or pardoned due to God's choice to atone for our lawbreaking through Jesus sacrifice.
No amount of praying for the dead will change the judgment God metes out.

jsimms435 said:

So, if God knew that he would steal and betray Jesus and not truly repent of it then in what sense was he at one time saved?
I do get it that foreknowledge and predestination are not the same.
To me, if a person is truly saved then their sins are forgiven.
All of their sins.
If Judas had committed a sin that was not going to be forgiven and was not atoned for then he was never really saved.

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Salvation is entry INTO Christ, Who IS the King AND the Kingdom of Heaven...

All prior sins are washed away in Baptism into Christ...

NOT ALL, indeed not ANY future sins are forgiven...

We are given a clean slate with Power to live in Christ at Baptism...

IF we turn back to our sins, as Judas was doing all along, we are headed bad and will lose what we had...


Arsenios

MennoSota said:

Ezekiel has authority to forgive sins? [emoji57]

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The son of man - Remember Him? He has the Authority to forgive sins, and does so through His Servants in the Apostolic Church, His Body on earth...

When we are dead, our grace period is over. We are judged either guilty due to our lawbreaking or pardoned due to God's choice to atone for our lawbreaking through Jesus sacrifice.
No amount of praying for the dead will change the judgment God metes out.

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God a Bible verse saying that?

The opera ain't over till the fat lady sings, my Brother...

And Salvation ain't over till the Last Judgement of Christ...

Memory Eternal to those we love!


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Perhaps MC might chime in...

...
Arsenios

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No, I don't think chiming in will help.

Arsenios said:

The son of man - Remember Him? He has the Authority to forgive sins, and does so through His Servants in the Apostolic Church, His Body on earth...



God a Bible verse saying that?

The opera ain't over till the fat lady sings, my Brother...

And Salvation ain't over till the Last Judgement of Christ...

Memory Eternal to those we love!


Arsenios

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I remember...
Ezekiel 2:1-10
[1]“Stand up, son of man,” said the voice. “I want to speak with you.”
[2]The Spirit came into me as he spoke, and he set me on my feet. I listened carefully to his words.
[3]“Son of man,” he said, “I am sending you to the nation of Israel, a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me. They and their ancestors have been rebelling against me to this very day.
[4]They are a stubborn and hard-hearted people. But I am sending you to say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’
[5]And whether they listen or refuse to listen—for remember, they are rebels—at least they will know they have had a prophet among them.
[6]“Son of man, do not fear them or their words. Don’t be afraid even though their threats surround you like nettles and briers and stinging scorpions. Do not be dismayed by their dark scowls, even though they are rebels.
[7]You must give them my messages whether they listen or not. But they won’t listen, for they are completely rebellious!
[8]Son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not join them in their rebellion. Open your mouth, and eat what I give you.”
[9]Then I looked and saw a hand reaching out to me. It held a scroll,
[10]which he unrolled. And I saw that both sides were covered with funeral songs, words of sorrow, and pronouncements of doom.

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]
[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]

MennoSota said:

Josiah said:

I agree. But if faith only matters ONCE but not ALWAYS, then sometimes (perhaps most times) faith isn't important.


Except for the Universalists (an off shoot of exactly the same movement that gave us OSAS) ALL agree that where there is faith in Christ, there IS salvation. "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." One inseperible doctrine. All aspects need to be in place. And in traditional Protestantism, the issue is NOT the intensity or genuiness or quality of the faith but the OBJECT of the faith: if faith is in Christ (even the size of a Mustard seed, even if surrounded by cognative doubt) it is saving faith since it's the OBJECT of the faith that saves, not the sincerity or intensity of the faith. Now, most of us would agree that there can be challenges and even lapses of faith that we would tend to see as not repudiations - and we'd likely say that such times do not destroy faith. Again, faith the size of a mustard seed, even is shrouded in doubts or confusion or "tough times" still lives.



The "problem" I see in OSAS is two-fold as it rejects the above.

1) It holds that salvation ALSO exists where faith does not. If one was EVER saved (say on May 22, 1948) THEREFORE they are saved today even if they are now a Muslim and have repudiated their Christianity, because "ONCE Saved, ALWAYS saved." IMO, there is no salvation where there is no faith. And IMO, this position makes all the Law verses I referenced wrong (or at least meaningless and irrelevant since they all speak to a situation that CANNOT ever exist)

2) To get around the above problem, such radical Calvinists will often say,"ah, but on May 22, 1948, he GENUINELY said he believed, he was SINCERE in what he said - or so he THOUGHT- but he was wrong. That faith wasn't "real" or "genuine" or "authentic" or "real" and thus not salvic. This puts the importance on the quality of the faith (which can NEVER be known - even to self) rather than on the OBJECT of faith.


I hold it is best to simply agree with what the Bible says. And leave it at that. Let God has His say. Let Gospel be Gospel and let Law be law.




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How could faith be a one time thing, Josiah?

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Odd how you constantly try to formulate dogma by asking questions... Questions substantiate only one thing: your ability to construct a sentence that is a question. Nothing more. Nothing else.


As to whether one can "wreck" their faith or "fall" from faith or whether those once saved may no longer be, READ (and accept) the following. Don't deny or "spin" so that they "mean" the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they say because what God says is something you disagree with (you are good at that):


Luke 8:13 "....they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away."
They had faith FOR A WHILE.... and later, "FELL AWAY." Not, "if you believe for a moment, you are saved no matter whether you have faith or not, ONCE believe you, you're covered no matter what."


1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
Radical Calvinists disagree with what "the Spirit clearly says." Note: One CANNOT abandon what they do not have, but yes, the Spirit says they can (and some WILL) abandon their faith.


Galatians 5:4 "... you have fallen away from grace."
Can't fall away from something that wasn't previously the case.


2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."
If OSAS is correct, then Scripture is issuing a severe warning to a situation that CANNOT EVER exist; Scripture would be deceptive, misleading, FALSELY warning.


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
One cannot cease to remain if they were not at one time; this speaks to one who ONCE was in grace but ceased to be.


Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"
Note: REMAIN... they were in the faith but then they ceased to be and lost their salvation; Jesus turning away from them.


Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."


Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."


John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."


Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."


Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."


Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."


2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."


Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.



Stop contradicting and correcting God.... and believe.





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MoreCoffee said:

No, I don't think chiming in will help.

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:smirk:

Finally!!

I have been looking for some time now, you know...

For this opportunity, you see...

To finally slather you properly...

With this emoji you have used...

So relentlessly, you doG!

A.