Social Norms Are Changing

Lämmchen said:

Biden recently said in an interview that "Social norms are changing" when addressing the accusations of inappropriately touching women. The full quote is this "Social norms are changing. I understand that, and I've heard what these women are saying. Politics to me has always been about making connections, but I will be more mindful about respecting personal space in the future. That's my responsibility and I will meet it."

Will people go out of their minds like they did when Trump was blasted for talking inappropriately about women?

ARE social norms changing? I seem to think they are. I think people are insisting that there is openness but truly the rules are getting stricter on what is and what is not appropriate anymore.

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The left will probably give him a pass while the right will make more of it.

I think you're right about social norms. It's curious that touching someone on the shoulder apparently counts as sexual harrassment (even if it's done to both genders) while it's more and more accepted that people will be jumping into bed together within half an hour of meeting. The whole concept of everything being relative leads to all sorts of stupid places, like the idea that something is harrassment if anybody believes it to be harrassment. In other words, whenever you're talking to someone (who isn't white, male, heterosexual etc, because privilege or something) can make up the rules as they go along and if you cross a line that isn't objectively defined you become the bad guy.

Last night on the news I saw clips of him touching women, attempting to kiss them on the head, touching their hair... that's not okay. Yes, there are women who will jump into bed at the first chance, but in the workplace, that's not okay. It's never been okay, but women have tolerated it because of the attempts to break through the glass ceiling. Workplace rules have never applied to men and women equally, and I think that is what stands out the most here - even in the Hollywood #metoo movement. Sexual advances are not wanted in a professional environment. Period. I hope people do make a big stink about it. It's not okay to normalize inappropriate touching - from men or women.

Biden is a creep, those little girls he groped on camera were very agitated you can tell. With one of the girls you can see his hand moving up to her breast as she tries to squirm away. The LGBT have already began normalizing pedophilia so it's no surprise that an obvious pedo would run for office

ValleyGal said:

Last night on the news I saw clips of him touching women, attempting to kiss them on the head, touching their hair... that's not okay. Yes, there are women who will jump into bed at the first chance, but in the workplace, that's not okay. It's never been okay, but women have tolerated it because of the attempts to break through the glass ceiling. Workplace rules have never applied to men and women equally, and I think that is what stands out the most here - even in the Hollywood #metoo movement. Sexual advances are not wanted in a professional environment. Period. I hope people do make a big stink about it. It's not okay to normalize inappropriate touching - from men or women.

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It's tricky to determine just what is OK and not OK, objectively speaking. If someone is uncomfortable with a situation then it's reasonable to argue that either they are over-sensitive or the situation is inappropriate. Determining objectively which is the case is, like many other situations, a scale with clear black and white at the ends and lots of shades of gray in the middle. It's hard to imagine very many people arguing that grabbing someone's genitals right after meeting them is inappropriate; it is equally hard to imagine very many people claiming that saying "good morning" is harassment. And between extremes are all sorts of areas where the appropriateness or otherwise can't be externally decided so to try and claim that, for instance, a slap on the back is inherently harassment makes situations get absurd very quickly.

Truth be told I don't think you can even claim that "sexual advances are not wanted in a professional environment, period", especially given how many people meet their partners at work. Of course there's a difference between a polite request for a date and the kind of lecherous behavior that nobody should expect to tolerate, so it goes back to shades of gray again.

psalms 91 said:

Wow, you better hope that any girl you have ever touched in an innocent way does not judge you like that. I dont know what you saw that I didnt but I did hear a lot of women that he worked with and was around defend him and I have yet to hear anyone actually accuse him of any type of sexual assault

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I am not worried about adults defending him, it's the children that look terrified when he touches all over them and feels them up and kisses them over and over again sometimes on the lips and whispers in their ears as they try to squirm away.
You can find the unedited photo shoot video, it's lengthy but I guarantee you understand what I mean.
The fact that you can see that they are extremely uncomfortable you would think that this man would back off, he doesn't, if I had a child I would never put him or her in such an uncomfortable situation, creepy joe won't win in 2020 I find it hilarious that he's even trying to run

Lämmchen said:

In the article from my previous post above, it states how certain ways of touching can be misconstrued, like stroking, even if it's meant to be innocent. I think that's what creeps a lot of people out is because he's not just simply patting or a touch and go, he's lingering with a stroke and it looks suggestive. It COULD have been innocent in his eyes because that could be how he was raised. I have no idea. I know people from other generations than mine look upon actions differently.

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Generational issues are certainly very real. I have a family member who routinely refers to black people with the n-word, simply because that was normal when he was growing up. Even when he's told again and again that it's considered offensive these days the reality is that old habits die hard.

It's refreshing when people can tell the difference between intended offense and a term they might not like but that isn't used with any intent to shock - for example giving someone in their 90s a break because things have changed since they were growing up, while at the same time expecting someone in their 20s to know better than to use certain words.

psalms 91 said:

Wow, you better hope that any girl you have ever touched in an innocent way does not judge you like that. I dont know what you saw that I didnt but I did hear a lot of women that he worked with and was around defend him and I have yet to hear anyone actually accuse him of any type of sexual assault

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This is where things will almost certainly split along partisan lines, again.

It will make a really nice change if we see something other than one side wanting to crucify Brett Kavanaugh while giving Joe Biden a pass, while the other side does the exact opposite.

Lämmchen said:

Biden recently said in an interview that "Social norms are changing" when addressing the accusations of inappropriately touching women. The full quote is this "Social norms are changing. I understand that, and I've heard what these women are saying. Politics to me has always been about making connections, but I will be more mindful about respecting personal space in the future. That's my responsibility and I will meet it."

Will people go out of their minds like they did when Trump was blasted for talking inappropriately about women?

ARE social norms changing? I seem to think they are. I think people are insisting that there is openness but truly the rules are getting stricter on what is and what is not appropriate anymore.

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The norms probably are changing, but that alibi has never worked before in the world of politics.

On the other hand, there is not much else Biden can use as an excuse, seeing that "It was not as bad as it looked " did not get him anywhere.

psalms 91 said:

It is also not ok to make every innocent touch sexual and from everything I have read about this man and his long history I believe he is being wrongly accused

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Well, sure. He's a Democrat and that's good enough for the exoneration, right?

Now if we could only find a way to alibi away those many films and photos of him in action. This is not a case of "he said she said," you know!

I honestly really don't care for this guy

psalms 91 said:

What I do know is that he has not been accused of any sexual assault of any kind and if he was what people are saying he is then there would be evidence of that. Quit trying to turn this political and lets concentrate on what is said. I dont know of any candidate that hasnt kissed babies and supporters innocently not grab and on the lips kissing. I know this is political but I am trying to say that it is not ok to turn every touch and kiss into anything but innocent. Sort of muddies the waters for those who should be justly accused.

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These are babies he's kissing, these are children

psalms 91 said:

What I do know is that he has not been accused of any sexual assault of any kind and if he was what people are saying he is then there would be evidence of that. .

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Both of those certainly have happened!

I have to conclude that you either do not follow events very closely, in which case you might consider refraining from posting judgments about them or, if not that, you feel the urge to step in to defend a favorite no matter what. This is not identical to the Kavanaugh case where there was a top-level investigation of the charges and the FBI found them to be lacking.