Belief vs. Fact

Hammster · Aug 24, 2015

MarkFL said:
Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs. The lack of belief in the Bible, while conveniently defined by that same Bible as a sin, is not wrong by any real and objective definition of wrongdoing and does not require repentance.

I mean you are free to pray for whatever you want, but just know that it means nothing to me because of the fact that I am in no need of repentance, when we look at the actual definition of repentance. You can pray until you are blue in the face for God to alter my mind and suspend my need for evidence before believing things, but nothing will come of it.

And even if God were to present me with a revelation and give me any reason to believe, I would still not have been wrong for previously not believing. I find that not believing things until there is a compelling reason to do so to be the right thing to do. You may define it as wrong, based on your beliefs, but this does not make it so.

Christians would do well to not go around telling non-Christians that they are in need of repentance. What good can come of telling people that have done something wrong when in fact they have not? You have made a choice to believe...that's your right and while I don't agree I respect your right to believe whatever you want...but don't tell me I am wrong because I don't believe as you do. Until anyone can provide a compelling reason to believe, it simply is not wrong to not believe based on this lack of compelling evidence.

The Bible says to not believe is a sin. I am okay with being labelled a sinner based on this definition, but do not tell me I need to repent, because this sin is not wrong. Some sins are also wrong, like murder. But the sin of unbelief is not a true wrongdoing. When I actually do something wrong, then, and only then, am I in need of repentance.

Actually, I'm praying that God changes your heart. That's the only way we are saved. It's with a new heart that one believes.

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MarkFL · Aug 24, 2015

Well as I said you have the right to pray for whatever you want, but I don't see it as a favorable thing for you to hope that I change who I am at my core and open myself up (or worse be forced to open up by supernatural means) to believing in things for which there is no compelling evidence...even if it is just this one arbitrary thing out of all the claims made by people that I also reject as truth because of lack of evidence.

Hammster · Aug 24, 2015

MarkFL said:
Well as I said you have the right to pray for whatever you want, but I don't see it as a favorable thing for you to hope that I change who I am at my core and open myself up (or worse be forced to open up by supernatural means) to believing in things for which there is no compelling evidence...even if it is just this one arbitrary thing out of all the claims made by people that I also reject as truth because of lack of evidence.

It's favorable for you to have a right relationship with Christ. It's favorable for you to not spend an eternity apart from God. There's no benefit for me because there's nothing I can do. All I can do is present the gospel. That's where the power is.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

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MarkFL · Aug 24, 2015

Hammster said:
It's favorable for you to have a right relationship with Christ. It's favorable for you to not spend an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that the Christian God exists, if we posit this as an axiom, then I would agree these would be favorable things. I mean who wouldn't find it preferable to be right with that which will torture you for eternity in a horrible way simply for requiring evidence before belief? But I, and a growing number of others, need compelling evidence. An axiom should be self-evident though, such as those made in Euclidean geometry, it should not require faith.

Hammster · Aug 24, 2015

MarkFL said:
If we assume that the Christian God exists, if we posit this as an axiom, then I would agree these would be favorable things. I mean who wouldn't find it preferable to be right with that which will torture you for eternity in a horrible way simply for requiring evidence before belief? But I, and a growing number of others, need compelling evidence. An axiom should be self-evident though, such as those made in Euclidean geometry, it should not require faith.

If we assume the Christian God exists, then we must also assume that He has revealed Himself in some way. And we also must assume that what He says about Himself is true. And we must assume that what He says about us is true.

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MarkFL · Aug 24, 2015

Hammster said:
If we assume the Christian God exists, then we must also assume that He has revealed Himself in some way. And we also must assume that what He says about Himself is true. And we must assume that what He says about us is true.

Yes, if we make that first step of faith, then all manner of other things can follow in our worldview. But as they say, "watch that first step...it's a doozy!"

However, it is not self-evident, it requires the suspension of the requirement of compelling evidence, and so cannot be an axiom, but rather only a belief. An example of an axiom is:

A straight line may be drawn between any two points.

This is self-evident and we can in fact carry out experiments to see if we can place any two points on a plane (or n-dimensional space) and not be able to connect them with a straight line. We can even use analytic geometry to find the equation of the line between arbitrarily defined points. We have compelling reason to believe this axiom is true.

God's existence, or lack of existence, cannot be tested or verified at all. To believe gods exist, or even don't exist, requires a belief without evidence. The best we can do is be agnostic on this notion, until any kind of compelling evidence is found.

ImaginaryDay2 · Aug 24, 2015

MarkFL said:
God's existence, or lack of existence, cannot be tested or verified at all. To believe gods exist, or even don't exist, requires a belief without evidence. The best we can do is be agnostic on this notion, until any kind of compelling evidence is found.

I agree with you here. Testing or verification of the existence of God or other gods cannot be done experimentally. it's not possible to hypothesize about the existence of the Judaeo-Christian God and design a test to determine the validity of the hypothesis. To make it worse, the non-believer has scripture quoted about their "righteousness being as filthy rags". Wow. I'd like to join that club...

As an example of how we sometime go about this the wrong way, my wife and I were out shopping over the weekend and came across a town fair. They had quite the crowd, everyone seemed to be having a decent time. In the middle of all this were about four knuckleheads with signs reading "Repent and turn to Jesus, or burn in a LAKE OF FIRE!" (complete with cartoon flames). They weren't necessarily harassing anyone, but man, did they look "righteous". I felt like getting my own sign that said "That goes for them, too. Enjoy the fair!"

Anyway, in spite of the message we send, the truth is that verification can only come from God Himself, it can't be "tested" in an experiential sense. That's the motive behind some "praying" for others. it's only by the intervention of the Holy Spirit that I know these things are true. Without it, I would be in the same place. I often say to my wife that, if it weren't for the fact that I know Christ is God (because the Spirit has revealed this truth), I'm sure that I would be agnostic - because of the very example above. I don't like to hear that our "righteousness is as filthy rags". Some would have the Christian believe that we still are filthy rags - perpetual sinners - dregs of humanity. And I've struggled with that. So it's only by faith in Christ that I make a choice to accept the word as true.

psalms 91 · Aug 24, 2015

ImaginaryDay2 said:
I agree with you here. Testing or verification of the existence of God or other gods cannot be done experimentally. it's not possible to hypothesize about the existence of the Judaeo-Christian God and design a test to determine the validity of the hypothesis. To make it worse, the non-believer has scripture quoted about their "righteousness being as filthy rags". Wow. I'd like to join that club...

As an example of how we sometime go about this the wrong way, my wife and I were out shopping over the weekend and came across a town fair. They had quite the crowd, everyone seemed to be having a decent time. In the middle of all this were about four knuckleheads with signs reading "Repent and turn to Jesus, or burn in a LAKE OF FIRE!" (complete with cartoon flames). They weren't necessarily harassing anyone, but man, did they look "righteous". I felt like getting my own sign that said "That goes for them, too. Enjoy the fair!"

Anyway, in spite of the message we send, the truth is that verification can only come from God Himself, it can't be "tested" in an experiential sense. That's the motive behind some "praying" for others. it's only by the intervention of the Holy Spirit that I know these things are true. Without it, I would be in the same place. I often say to my wife that, if it weren't for the fact that I know Christ is God (because the Spirit has revealed this truth), I'm sure that I would be agnostic - because of the very example above. I don't like to hear that our "righteousness is as filthy rags". Some would have the Christian believe that we still are filthy rags - perpetual sinners - dregs of humanity. And I've struggled with that. So it's only by faith in Christ that I make a choice to accept the word as true.

The purpose of that scripture to me is to show that we can do nothing to earn our way into heaven and that we are all sinners. It is only throough Christ's righteousness that any of us are able to make it to heaven. I am just a sinner who has accepted Christ, I am no better than an unrepentant sinner in the sense that I am more righteous because I am not nor is anyone else except by the blood of Christ.

Hammster · Aug 24, 2015

Biblical "good"

ImaginaryDay2 said:
I agree with you here. Testing or verification of the existence of God or other gods cannot be done experimentally. it's not possible to hypothesize about the existence of the Judaeo-Christian God and design a test to determine the validity of the hypothesis. To make it worse, the non-believer has scripture quoted about their "righteousness being as filthy rags". Wow. I'd like to join that club...

As an example of how we sometime go about this the wrong way, my wife and I were out shopping over the weekend and came across a town fair. They had quite the crowd, everyone seemed to be having a decent time. In the middle of all this were about four knuckleheads with signs reading "Repent and turn to Jesus, or burn in a LAKE OF FIRE!" (complete with cartoon flames). They weren't necessarily harassing anyone, but man, did they look "righteous". I felt like getting my own sign that said "That goes for them, too. Enjoy the fair!"

Anyway, in spite of the message we send, the truth is that verification can only come from God Himself, it can't be "tested" in an experiential sense. That's the motive behind some "praying" for others. it's only by the intervention of the Holy Spirit that I know these things are true. Without it, I would be in the same place. I often say to my wife that, if it weren't for the fact that I know Christ is God (because the Spirit has revealed this truth), I'm sure that I would be agnostic - because of the very example above. I don't like to hear that our "righteousness is as filthy rags". Some would have the Christian believe that we still are filthy rags - perpetual sinners - dregs of humanity. And I've struggled with that. So it's only by faith in Christ that I make a choice to accept the word as true.

This is why I don't get into discussions trying to prove that God exists. Scripture says that His existence is evident to everyone. So what is there to prove? Scripture also says that it's the power of the gospel that saves, not my arguments. So I try to use scripture when possible. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And I pray that God will change their heart.

Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

MarkFL · Aug 24, 2015

Hammster said:
Scripture says that His existence is evident to everyone.

Oh, okay...in that case you won't have any trouble pointing to this evidence. Where is it?

psalms 91 · Aug 24, 2015

The universe, the stars, the way a tree is made or a human, if that doesnt speak to something higher than man I dont know what does

Hammster · Aug 24, 2015

MarkFL said:
Oh, okay...in that case you won't have any trouble pointing to this evidence. Where is it?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:18-20

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ImaginaryDay2 · Aug 24, 2015

bill1231 said:
The purpose of that scripture to me is to show that we can do nothing to earn our way into heaven and that we are all sinners. It is only throough Christ's righteousness that any of us are able to make it to heaven. I am just a sinner who has accepted Christ, I am no better than an unrepentant sinner in the sense that I am more righteous because I am not nor is anyone else except by the blood of Christ.

Ignoring the fact that the righteousness of Christ dwells in us, and he calls us "friends". We are no longer "unrepentant" in that sense. But I digress...

MarkFL · Aug 24, 2015

bill1231 said:
The universe, the stars, the way a tree is made or a human, if that doesnt speak to something higher than man I dont know what does

Those things do not necessarily imply an intelligent creator...we cannot simply look at something and say we don't understand it, therefore it must have been created. We must investigate and look to find the explanations if we desire to actually understand.

Hammster said:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:18-20

Again, using the Bible as evidence for the truth of the Bible is circular and illicit logic at best.

Hammster · Aug 25, 2015

The evidence for a Creator is creation. As the scripture says, you've suppressed the truth. So there's nothing I can give you that will convince you.

He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'" - Luke 16:31

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MarkFL · Aug 25, 2015

Hammster said:
The evidence for a Creator is creation. As the scripture says, you've suppressed the truth. So there's nothing I can give you that will convince you.

The universe is only labeled "creation" by creationists. And once again, the scripture is not a source for truth unless you believe it is by faith.

You could convince me with compelling evidence, not scripture or faith-based beliefs.

Hammster · Aug 25, 2015

Nope. You've already rejected the evidence. So there's nothing I can give you.

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MarkFL · Aug 25, 2015

Hammster said:
Nope. You've already rejected the evidence. So there's nothing I can give you.

You've presented no compelling evidence, only scripture. The only thing I have rejected is believing in something without compelling evidence. Provide that, and then we can have a meaningful discussion, otherwise we are at an impasse with me requiring compelling evidence and you trying to pass belief off as evidence. Until you can pass that first hurdle, I have no valid reason to change my position.

Hammster · Aug 25, 2015

I've presented creation. You've rejected it as such.

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MarkFL · Aug 25, 2015

Hammster said:
I've presented creation. You've rejected it as such.

You have merely presented the fact that you believe the universe was intelligently created, but provided nothing in the way of compelling evidence that it actually was created by an intelligent creator. You are free to hold this belief, but you are not free to pass your belief off as fact to the world at large until you can provide any kind of compelling evidence.

Belief vs. Fact

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