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Andrew

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He never will, but we can leave and forsake Him...

Why did He tell the Prophet to marry the harlot?

Why is the discipline of the Church among all the Apostolic Churches the withdrawal of Communion?

God's withdrawal of His Grace to those living in that Grace is catastrophic...

It is, as well, well documented...

Peter experienced it and repented with bitter tears...

And regained his Apostleship...

Judas experienced it and committed suicide...

When what he needed was repentance...

And permanently lost his Apostleship...

Which is why Christ's Church disciples repentance and not suicide...


Arsenios
Judas couldn't do anything without authority from God "what you do, do it quickly"
also who hardened Pharaohs heart?
 

MennoSota

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He never will, but we can leave and forsake Him...

Why did He tell the Prophet to marry the harlot?

Why is the discipline of the Church among all the Apostolic Churches the withdrawal of Communion?

God's withdrawal of His Grace to those living in that Grace is catastrophic...

It is, as well, well documented...

Peter experienced it and repented with bitter tears...

And regained his Apostleship...

Judas experienced it and committed suicide...

When what he needed was repentance...

And permanently lost his Apostleship...

Which is why Christ's Church disciples repentance and not suicide...


Arsenios

The prophet was directed by God as an example to Israel. It had nothing to do with your foolish claim.
Second, you prove your churches misconception of communion as a magical elixir rather than as a remembrance of Jesus, once and for all the elect, payment for sin.
Third, Peter was already elect. God never left Peter. Peter was blessed by his denial. God ordained it and used it to humble Peter and make him into one who would be bold.
Judas never knew God's grace. He was destined to destruction by God's ordinance.
I love this hymn. It speaks to God's Sovereign hand over all things.
"Whate'er My God Ordains is Right"
https://youtu.be/f0LeOlSkyQI
 

Arsenios

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Judas couldn't do anything without authority from God: "what you do, do it quickly"

Indeed, he even did it just after eating Christ's Flesh and drinking His Blood...

He was doing his own will, in his love of silver, not God's Will...

Even in eating and drinking our Lord he loved silver more...

In this fallen life, we can do our own will...

And God will permit it...

Or we can deny our own self, and follow Christ...

Also who hardened Pharaohs heart?

It was hardened by withdrawing God's Grace when Pharaoh insisted on the hardness of his own heart...

This is why habits of sin are so important to repent from...

God will let you go on sinning, as He did Judas and Pharaoh...

And at a time of His choosing, He will take the Grace you thought you had as a sinner...

That is catastrophic loss...

Pharaoh and his host lost in the Red Sea...

Judas killed himself...

What you are doing MATTERS...

You simply CANNOT go on sinning in the presence of God's Grace...

It WILL depart...

You will NOT know when...

And even the departure of Grace is a loving action by God, for it is withdrawn so you can come to your senses and repent and regain God...

The Prodigal Son was not permitted to even eat what he was feeding the pigs...

And in this loss of Grace, "He came to himself...", remember?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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The prophet was directed by God as an example to Israel.

It was a teaching to Israel, you are right... Showing their adultery against God Who is faithful...

Second, you prove your churches misconception of communion as a magical elixir

It is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,
and drink his blood,
ye have no life in you.


rather than as a remembrance of Jesus, once and for all the elect, payment for sin.

The Apostles did not suffer faulty memories...

Remembrance means much more than merely "a reminder"...

Third, Peter was already elect. God never left Peter. Peter was blessed by his denial. God ordained it and used it to humble Peter and make him into one who would be bold.

Luke 22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

He was condemned by thrice denying Christ who had said: "Whomsoever shall deny Me I will deny to my Father..."

He was blessed by Christ restoring him through his repentance following his fall...

UNLIKE Judas, I should add...

Judas never knew God's grace. He was destined to destruction by God's ordinance.

He received by God's Grace the Apostolic Gifts, yet did not repent of his love of silver...

And for this he lost his Salvation and his Apostleship...

Repentance is required for Salvation...

It is not Salvation...

God gives Salvation, which IS God's Grace, which is Himself that He gives...

We are an adulterous and sinful generation, and so was Israel...

So God had His Prophet marry the Harlot...

It did not go well with her...

What you DO matters...


Arsenios
 
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RichWh1

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Arsenios,
Are you saying that a Christian can lose salvation or that God can remove it from one?
I'm not sure what your point is. Could you please clarify? Thanks

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MennoSota

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It was a teaching to Israel, you are right... Showing their adultery against God Who is faithful...



It is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,
and drink his blood,
ye have no life in you.




The Apostles did not suffer faulty memories...

Remembrance means much more than merely "a reminder"...



Luke 22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

He was condemned by thrice denying Christ who had said: "Whomsoever shall deny Me I will deny to my Father..."

He was blessed by Christ restoring him through his repentance following his fall...

UNLIKE Judas, I should add...

Judas never knew God's grace. He was destined to destruction by God's ordinance.
He received by God's Grace the Apostolic Gifts, yet did not repent of his love of silver...

And for this he lost his Salvation and his Apostleship...

Repentance is required for Salvation...

It is not Salvation...

God gives Salvation, which IS God's Grace, which is Himself that He gives...

We are an adulterous and sinful generation, and so was Israel...

So God had His Prophet marry the Harlot...

It did not go well with her...

What you DO matters...


Arsenios
1) Jesus didn't cut out a pound of flesh, nor did he drain a pint of blood. He was symbolizing his role as the sacrificed lamb of God. It is extremely significant that Jesus died as a sacrifice on the Passover.
You make Jesus words into a magical elixir that is never what he meant.
Hebrews 10:5-23,39
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios,
Are you saying that a Christian can lose salvation or that God can remove it from one?
I'm not sure what your point is. Could you please clarify? Thanks

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In a marriage relationship, two become one...

There is no room for adultery...

"I the Lord thy God am a Jealous God..."

Salvation is the union of man with God...

Man can in this life enter into adultery...

Adultery is the sin of turning from God...

Porn is adultery...

So is gluttony...

So is love of silver...

The work of marriage is to work out differences...

With God that means repentance...

Unrepented adultery will find God withdrawing His Grace, that you find repentance...

It is not the only reason God may withdraw His Grace...


Arsenios
 

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Jesus didn't cut out a pound of flesh, nor did he drain a pint of blood.

You are correct - Instead:

He took the bread and blessed it saying:
"Take... Eat...
This is My Body which is broken for you...
For the remission of sins..."


I am sorry you do not believe our Lord...

He said this PRIOR to His Crucifixion...

He was symbolizing his role as the sacrificed lamb of God.
It is extremely significant that Jesus died as a sacrifice on the Passover.
You make Jesus words into a magical elixir that is never what he meant.

Jesus meant what He said, Menno...

It is the Body and Blood of Christ...

We live in the Covenant of this Body and Blood...

It is not a magical potion, as you accuse...

It is the Holy Mystery of the Body and Blood of our Lord...


Arsenios
 

RichWh1

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In a marriage relationship, two become one...

There is no room for adultery...

"I the Lord thy God am a Jealous God..."

Salvation is the union of man with God...

Man can in this life enter into adultery...

Adultery is the sin of turning from God...

Porn is adultery...

So is gluttony...

So is love of silver...

The work of marriage is to work out differences...

With God that means repentance...

Unrepented adultery will find God withdrawing His Grace, that you find repentance...

It is not the only reason God may withdraw His Grace...


Arsenios
Arsenios
That's not an answer to my question. Can one lose salvation, not can one sin What's your answer?
When man and woman become one flesh, do they cease to be one? No they don't. Divorce is man made not God ordained. Marriage is God ordained. When two become one, they remain one flesh, even after divorce otherwise God would be a liar

You also seem to be confusing adultery with idolatry.


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Andrew

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You are correct - Instead:

He took the bread and blessed it saying:
"Take... Eat...
This is My Body which is broken for you...
For the remission of sins..."


I am sorry you do not believe our Lord...

He said this PRIOR to His Crucifixion...



Jesus meant what He said, Menno...

It is the Body and Blood of Christ...

We live in the Covenant of this Body and Blood...

It is not a magical potion, as you accuse...

It is the Holy Mystery of the Body and Blood of our Lord...


Arsenios

It's a 'ritual' therefore a superstition once you realize that it's actually symbolic as Christ spoke in parables for the most part
 

Andrew

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No one has ever actually eaten Jesus's flesh
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios
That's not an answer to my question. Can one lose salvation, not can one sin What's your answer?

Forgive me! Yes - The answer is yes...

IF you return to your sins from living in repentance from them, you can lose your Salvation...

Paul wrote of this as but "fit for burning", yes?

Heb 6:8-9
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


When man and woman become one flesh, do they cease to be one? No they don't. Divorce is man made not God ordained. Marriage is God ordained. When two become one, they remain one flesh, even after divorce otherwise God would be a liar

I am glad you regard Marriage as a Sacrament that God Ordained, and not merely a personal commitment of a man and a woman to each other before God...

You also seem to be confusing adultery with idolatry.

In the Marriage of the Lamb, idolatry IS adultery...


Arsenios
 

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It's a 'ritual' therefore a superstition once you realize that it's actually symbolic as Christ spoke in parables for the most part


Christ did not say it was a parable...

The Greek emphasizes the IS in "This My Body IS..."

You do not have to believe Him...

This is a free country...

But I believe Him...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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No one has ever actually eaten Jesus's flesh


His disciples ate it the night Judas betrayed Him...

And IF you do not eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, "you have no Life in you..."

Christ's very words...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

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Eat his flesh and drink his blood are nothing they did for he would not have a body for strength to be crucified, they ate bread and had wine in spirit, he did not morph himself into a drink and a loaf of bread
 

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Besides, eating of flesh is forbidden by the Law of Moses.
Also that would be considered canabalism.


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MennoSota

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You are correct - Instead:

He took the bread and blessed it saying:
"Take... Eat...
This is My Body which is broken for you...
For the remission of sins..."


I am sorry you do not believe our Lord...

He said this PRIOR to His Crucifixion...



Jesus meant what He said, Menno...

It is the Body and Blood of Christ...

We live in the Covenant of this Body and Blood...

It is not a magical potion, as you accuse...

It is the Holy Mystery of the Body and Blood of our Lord...


Arsenios
So eating a slice of bread and a gulp of wine literally takes away sin...and it did so before the cross???
Arsenios, why would Jesus have needed to die since the bread and wine were sufficient to remit sins?
 

Arsenios

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He did not morph himself into a drink and a loaf of bread
Besides, eating of flesh is forbidden by the Law of Moses.
Also that would be considered canabalism.

That would be the carnal understanding...

Not to mention drinking His Blood!

Here is the Biblical result:

Joh 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

A well numbered verse, I should perhaps add, yes?


Arsenios
 

Josiah

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Besides, eating of flesh is forbidden by the Law of Moses. Also that would be considered canabalism.




1. This thread is not about the Eucharist. For that, see https://christianityhaven.com/showt...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical


2. I detest subjecting the Word of God to one's (often wrong) current concepts of physics, as if God is mandated to agree with some bloat's idea of physics who never took a single course in physics.


3. I tend to believe what Scripture says.... and since Jesus said "is" He likely meant "is" rather than "is NOT." It doesn't seem to be that Jesus COULD NOT have meant "is" since "is" seems to violate someone's assumptions. Correcting Jesus always seems a bit inappropriate to me. I tend to lean toward believing Jesus rather than correcting Him (seems wiser to ME).


4. I don't believe that Jesus is wrong unless we can understand it all via our puny, fallen, sinful, human brains. I accept that God is right - whether I can wrap my brain around it or not. God commands us to be STEWARDS (protectors) of the MYSTERIES of God, not correctors of God. See https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6609-How-Smart-is-Self




- Josiah




.
 
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Arsenios

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So eating a slice of bread and a gulp of wine literally takes away sin...and it did so before the cross???

I am sorry you live in a world of slices and gulps in your thinking of God's Holy Words...

And I am sorry that in your carnal understanding, you trivialize their meaning...

Arsenios, why would Jesus have needed to die since the bread and wine were sufficient to remit sins?

Jesus is not subject to necessity - He did not NEED to die - He CHOSE to die...

You are Called to repentance from your sins...

The Breaking of the Bread was no ordinary breaking of bread...

The disciples on the Road only finally even RECOGNIZED Jesus in this Breaking of the Bread...

You are trivializing Holy Words, my Brother...

His Holy Body was BROKEN for you...

YOU are to PARTAKE of this brokenness of body...

So you are to EAT His Body...

The fact that He gave His Disciples His Body and Blood to eat and drink before His Death

Constituted His last Commandment to them prior to Him ascending the Cross...

"Be ye doing this in remembrance of Me..."


Arsenios
 
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