Disciples and Believers

I'm not sure if this qualifies...
2 Timothy 4:3-4,14-16
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message. At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!

I'm reading Rosaria Butterfield's book entitled "The Gospel Comes With A House Key." On pg 123 she talks about disciples caught in sin. She states that the disciple who is a believer will repent, for God gives the gift of repentance. The non-believer will not repent, because they cannot do so. Only believers can repent.
Here's the image of that page. I have the section marked in parentheses.

A disciple is a student or one learning. Not all who are disciples are Christ followers.


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Demas came to mind from 2 Timothy 4:10
for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia.
Although who really knows if he ended up repenting of this.

I believer there are probably many who attend church that are not true disciples. They don't really go to church because they are disciples, but for other reasons

MennoSota said:

I'm reading Rosaria Butterfield's book entitled "The Gospel Comes With A House Key." On pg 123 she talks about disciples caught in sin. She states that the disciple who is a believer will repent, for God gives the gift of repentance. The non-believer will not repent, because they cannot do so. Only believers can repent.
Here's the image of that page. I have the section marked in parentheses.

Click to expand...

Gen 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire,
and thou shalt rule over him [thy brother].

The first born here is given rule over the younger...
And the younger shall desire the approval of the elder brother...
And the elder was wroth with jealousy...
He did not desire to do well...
That his sacrifice be acceptable to God...

But this is the beginning of the races,
and of those who are killers of shepherds,
and those who are the shepherds killed...

And the curse upon those who kill...
And the restraint upon those killed...

The killers still desire to rule...
To exploit those to whom...
The earth yields not her fruit...

Nowhere here does God give repentance to Abel...
Nowhere does He deny repentance to Cain...
Indeed God encourages Cain to repentance...
And Cain coveted his wrath and killed Abel...

The division is the same to this day...
Those who bring fruit from the earth...
And those who kill them to rule them...

The producers...
The exploiters...

The peaceful...
The violent...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Gen 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire,
and thou shalt rule over him [thy brother].

The first born here is given rule over the younger...
And the younger shall desire the approval of the elder brother...
And the elder was wroth with jealousy...
He did not desire to do well...
That his sacrifice be acceptable to God...

But this is the beginning of the races,
and of those who are killers of shepherds,
and those who are the shepherds killed...

And the curse upon those who kill...
And the restraint upon those killed...

The killers still desire to rule...
To exploit those to whom...
The earth yields not her fruit...

Nowhere here does God give repentance to Abel...
Nowhere does He deny repentance to Cain...
Indeed God encourages Cain to repentance...
And Cain coveted his wrath and killed Abel...

The division is the same to this day...
Those who bring fruit from the earth...
And those who kill them to rule them...

The producers...
The exploiters...

The peaceful...
The violent...


Arsenios

Click to expand...

What's your point?

MennoSota said:

What's your point?

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That the statement "Repentance is a gift from God" ...
in the book excerpt you provided ...
is not supported by the text cited: Gen 4:7


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

That the statement "Repentance is a gift from God" ...
in the book excerpt you provided ...
is not supported by the text cited: Gen 4:7


Arsenios

Click to expand...

That verse has nothing to do with repentance. It has to do with the fact that sin lurks at our door as Christians. We need to be alert. We are given the gift of repentance, while a non-believer will not repent.
Here's God's word to Cain:
Genesis 4:6-7
The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
Here is what Cain did when God called out Cain for his sin:
Genesis 4:10-16
And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Notice that Cain never repented. He blamed God for being too harsh in His punishment and then Cain went away from the presence of God. This is the mark of the unrepentant rebel who never believed.

MennoSota said:

That verse has nothing to do with repentance. It has to do with the fact that sin lurks at our door as Christians. We need to be alert. We are given the gift of repentance, while a non-believer will not repent.
Here's God's word to Cain:
Genesis 4:6-7
The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
Here is what Cain did when God called out Cain for his sin:
Genesis 4:10-16
And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Notice that Cain never repented. He blamed God for being too harsh in His punishment and then Cain went away from the presence of God. This is the mark of the unrepentant rebel who never believed.

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The Lord said to Cain,
“Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
If you do well, will you not be accepted?
And if you do not do well,
sin is crouching at the door.
Its desire is for you,
but you must rule over it.”

IF YOU DO WELL...

Cain did not DO well...
He did NOT rule over sin crouched at the door...
He did NOT repent of his anger...
He did NOT overcome sin's desire for him...

NOTHING HERE about him BELIEVING the Lord...
EVERYTHING HERE about him DISOBEYING the Lord...

Cain failed to repent of his anger...
In disobedience to the Lord...
Which caused him to fall from Grace...

Totally clear...

Cain did NOT DO WELL...

And he knew God...


Arsenios

Lämmchen said:

In my mind I always considered disciples to be believers.
That is, until I was reminded on another forum that Judas was a disciple
and yet he didn't believe.
Are there others noted in scripture that were labeled disciples
but did not believe?

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Judas believed, but did not repent of his love of silver...
He did not humble himself...
He fell into the pride of despair...
For at the end, he KNEW what he had done...

Cain was his fore-runner...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Judas believed, but did not repent of his love of silver...
He did not humble himself...
He fell into the pride of despair...
For at the end, he KNEW what he had done...

Cain was his fore-runner...


Arsenios

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Judas did not believe.
John 13:18-19
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled,‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I Am.

Arsenios said:

The Lord said to Cain,
“Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
If you do well, will you not be accepted?
And if you do not do well,
sin is crouching at the door.
Its desire is for you,
but you must rule over it.”

IF YOU DO WELL...

Cain did not DO well...
He did NOT rule over sin crouched at the door...
He did NOT repent of his anger...
He did NOT overcome sin's desire for him...

NOTHING HERE about him BELIEVING the Lord...
EVERYTHING HERE about him DISOBEYING the Lord...

Cain failed to repent of his anger...
In disobedience to the Lord...
Which caused him to fall from Grace...

Totally clear...

Cain did NOT DO WELL...

And he knew God...


Arsenios

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Satan knows God. Satan could not repent. Satan does not know God's grace. Cain could not repent. Cain did not know God's grace.

MennoSota said:

Satan knows God. Satan could not repent. Satan does not know God's grace. Cain could not repent. Cain did not know God's grace.

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He repelled God's Grace by NOT obeying God's teaching and instruction...

He repelled God's Grace by failing to repent from his anger...

Or do you not believe the Bible???


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

He repelled God's Grace by NOT obeying God's teaching and instruction...

He repelled God's Grace by failing to repent from his anger...

Or do you not believe the Bible???


Arsenios

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You cannot "repel" God.
Do you imagine your will is greater than the Creator's? How silly of you to claim such a foolish thing. Do you have such a weak God, Arsenios?

MennoSota said:

You cannot "repel" God.
Do you imagine your will is greater than the Creator's? How silly of you to claim such a foolish thing. Do you have such a weak God, Arsenios?

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Try deliberately sinning, and you will find out that God withdraws from extending Grace to you upon such a sin...

That was the fall of Adam... He turned from God and lost God's Righteousness...

And was clothed instead with skin...

You do not overpower God's Will - That is silly...

But Grace departs from the man sinning...

And Grace accrues to the man doing mercy...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Try deliberately sinning, and you will find out that God withdraws from extending Grace to you upon such a sin...

That was the fall of Adam... He turned from God and lost God's Righteousness...

And was clothed instead with skin...

You do not overpower God's Will - That is silly...

But Grace departs from the man sinning...

And Grace accrues to the man doing mercy...

Arsenios

Click to expand...

Someone who deliberately keeps sinning is a person who has always been dead in their sins.
Many people attempt to imitate the adopted children of God by disciplining themselves to not sin. They live a self-righteous life but their sin is always controlling and lurking because they are still slaves to sin.
Saving grace has never been known by them for they are not adopted. They are illegitimate children (Hebrews 12).
God does not withdraw His saving grace from those whom He has chosen to adopt. God will discipline his children. He will sanctify them. He will bring them to heaven as though the fire of hell were licking at them. God has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us. He adopted us and He cannot deny Himself and His name.
Arsenios, I am concerned that you do not know God as your Father.

1 Corinthians 3:10-21
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,

MennoSota said:

God does not withdraw His saving grace
from those whom He has chosen to adopt.
God will discipline his children.

Click to expand...

That discipline is the withdrawal of His Grace...

Those who know His Grace know clearly and catastrophically its withdrawal...

If one claims God's Grace, and has never known it to depart...

Because of doing sin...

And through Confession and Repentance to return...

Has not experienced God's discipline...

A financial crisis, for instance, is not God's discipline...

Nor is getting liver cancer...

Nor is your child committing suicide...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

That discipline is the withdrawal of His Grace...

Those who know His Grace know clearly and catastrophically its withdrawal...

If one claims God's Grace, and has never known it to depart...

Because of doing sin...

And through Confession and Repentance to return...

Has not experienced God's discipline...

A financial crisis, for instance, is not God's discipline...


Arsenios

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NO! How foolish and unbiblical! Take that heresy away with you.
The grace of God applies discipline to all of His adopted children so that they might be made in the likeness of Christ their Lord.
Just because you imagine God's silence to be withdrawal of grace, it does not make it so.
Arsenios, your concept of grace is not what God teaches. What about Jesus words confuses you when he says: "Behold, I will never leave you nor forsake you."?

MennoSota said:

What about Jesus words confuses you when he says:
"Behold, I will never leave you nor forsake you."?

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He never will, but we can leave and forsake Him...

Why did He tell the Prophet to marry the harlot?

Why is the discipline of the Church among all the Apostolic Churches the withdrawal of Communion?

God's withdrawal of His Grace to those living in that Grace is catastrophic...

It is, as well, well documented...

Peter experienced it and repented with bitter tears...

And regained his Apostleship...

Judas experienced it and committed suicide...

When what he needed was repentance...

And permanently lost his Apostleship...

Which is why Christ's Church disciples repentance and not suicide...


Arsenios