OT post flood genealogy off a tad according to original hebrew text

Andrew

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This is my second attempt of bringing this matter to attention and I simply ask for a peer review.
Now, mind you that I have to use a video as the apologist (and a very good one) explains it better than I can.
Jump in about 5:50 in and he brings up a very interesting point.
It's a bit of a type and shadow because apparently the apostle Paul addresses this same exact issue which leads me to believe 100% that this is no typo in the OT but a ancient hebrew scribal 'conspiracy' if you must -which Paul underlines in his gospel as well.
All I request is a second opinion or better yet -a peer review respectfully.
Again you can begin at 4 to 5 minutes in (dont let the title throw you off btw, the pyramids have nothing to do with the bible)...
https://youtu.be/VI1yRTC6kGE

At around 19:45 you will get to the significants of Pauls teachings of "debating genealogies with the Jews"

I find this all fascinating and it does not imply that the bible is corrupt, just that Paul addresses this and we should know why he addresses it.

What do you think?
 
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Pedrito

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Once again I have ignored my own advice to myself about not watching linked videos. I did so because I detected a possibility of scholarship versus the drum beating and sermonising I had been exposed to many times in the past (pre-CH, mind you). As it turned out, It looks like I made the right decision.

I classify the presentation in the “thinking outside the square” category, the “rare kind of scholarship” category, the “worthy of attention” category, and also in the “sure to be rejected by most churchies (meaning church-going people – “Christians”)” category.

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It seems worth pointing out that simply because some deficiencies have been identified with the Masoretic version of the Hebrew Scriptures, that does not mean that there was no Hebrew “canon” (defined and acknowledged set of Hebrew Scriptures) in Jesus’ time. In fact, the existence of the Masoretic version demonstrates the preexistence of that predefined list of Holy Books, handed down from Jesus’ time and before.

I thank Andrew for bringing the matter to our attention.


==============================================================================================
 

Andrew

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==============================================================================================

Once again I have ignored my own advice to myself about not watching linked videos. I did so because I detected a possibility of scholarship versus the drum beating and sermonising I had been exposed to many times in the past (pre-CH, mind you). As it turned out, It looks like I made the right decision.

I classify the presentation in the “thinking outside the square” category, the “rare kind of scholarship” category, the “worthy of attention” category, and also in the “sure to be rejected by most churchies (meaning church-going people – “Christians”)” category.

==============================================================================================

It seems worth pointing out that simply because some deficiencies have been identified with the Masoretic version of the Hebrew Scriptures, that does not mean that there was no Hebrew “canon” (defined and acknowledged set of Hebrew Scriptures) in Jesus’ time. In fact, the existence of the Masoretic version demonstrates the preexistence of that predefined list of Holy Books, handed down from Jesus’ time and before.

I thank Andrew for bringing the matter to our attention.


==============================================================================================

Do you see though how certain quotes and references point 'over' the masoretic text into a much older original hebrew text?
Everytime the scribes updated 'the books' they destroyed the one before (after the new one was completed of course). This was standard procedure for the scribes.
This all comes to the conclusion that Pauls warning against false scribes are true (in his day) and our bible confirms this by the dropping of 100 years in the lineage of Shem (whom Jews today claim is melchizedek) and thus 'Christ could not be the Messiah' is all due to an ancient conspiracy to drop a few numbers to debate Christians over Christs lineage.
Thanks for your input Pedrito
 
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Pedrito

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Andrew (Post #3):
Do you see though how certain quotes and references point 'over' the masoretic text into a much older original hebrew text?

Most definitely so.

Thanks for your input Pedrito

No problem. I think people will have noted by now, that I offer (from my perspective, jaundiced or otherwise as it may be), acknowledgement of things that I see as praiseworthy, and the highlighting of matters that I see as unpraiseworthy. (As I have time, that is.)

In this case, acknowledgement seemed to be in order.
 

Andrew

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I summons three theologians to come forth to discuss this matter... [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] [MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION] [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]
DO NOT LET THE TITLE OF THE VIDEO DISCOURAGE YOU! (It has nothing to do with aliens or pyramids or Marty McFly)

I would really like you three to get involved (I didn't mean to call you theologians btw ;) ...yes I did lol)
Do you believe 100 (per 'son') years were knocked off of Shems lineage on purpose by Jewish scribes in Apostle Pauls time to debate genealogy with Christians as Paul implies and warns us of?
Jews have a hard time accepting Christ as high priest because according to his lineage he did not come from the Levitical tribe but of Judah and because they believe that Shem was Melchizedek due to his lineage... best to go to the OP and view the Video (timestamps are included in the OP) because the Apologists explains it best.
Thanks :)
 

FredVB

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I won't say that the masoretic text version is the perfect preservation of the Hebrew original writing of Yahweh's revealed word, it comes closer than other manuscripts to it. The Septuagent shows more that is highly questionable in its translation in comparison. Its additional name may be from a real name of one who cared as a form of a godfather in place of the biological father who was lost, and so was put into the genealogy, but the greater number of years is more surely artificially devised. We still have the way with scriptures to determine truth is was showing, with witness we should look at with the rest of scriptures. So one questionable verse should not decide anything for us in isolation.
 

Andrew

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I won't say that the masoretic text version is the perfect preservation of the Hebrew original writing of Yahweh's revealed word, it comes closer than other manuscripts to it. The Septuagent shows more that is highly questionable in its translation in comparison. Its additional name may be from a real name of one who cared as a form of a godfather in place of the biological father who was lost, and so was put into the genealogy, but the greater number of years is more surely artificially devised. We still have the way with scriptures to determine truth is was showing, with witness we should look at with the rest of scriptures. So one questionable verse should not decide anything for us in isolation.
Watch the whole video this guy does his homework and had a hunch that the scribes in Pauls time were up to something that would cause Christians to believe (and is causing a stumbling block for jews today) that Jesus could not be the messiah because he came from the non priesthood side of Judah and it all has to do with geology as Paul writes about... i find this a modern day revelation that so far has not gained traction just yet... but there is something to it, something fishy... imo
 

Arsenios

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I know you didn't summon me, but I have always wondered why on earth would a Christian receive a non-Christian text for their Bible of the Old Testament...

Jewish Scribes, translated the ancient Hebraic text into Greek, and this was the Bible used by the Jews at the time of Christ throughout the Jewish Diaspora...

It was the OT Bible of the Christians...

The Masoretic OT was not completed for another thousand years or so after Christ, and was a product that was created by a non-Christian community that hated Christians...

Indeed that had been persecuting Christians from the time of Christ...

The Septuagint Bible in Greek is THE Christian Old Testament...

The rest by now are pretty much brain-toys for post modern scholarship...

When I cite a text in Greek, I use this site:

http://classic.studylight.org/isb/b...n=0&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=byz&Enter=Perform+Search

And I select the Byzantine NT text and the LXX for the Old...


Arsenios
 

FredVB

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The best support of the Septuagint over other manuscripts neglects textual criticism that's a standard approach. The following is from https://creation.com/lxx-mt-response

In two recent papers published in creationist literature, Henry Smith has argued that the Septuagint preserves a better chronology in Genesis 5 and 11. However, we believe his scholarship is significantly flawed. But we hope every reader understands that this is not personal. It is only grudgingly that we are brought to this point. Smith is a friend who has contributed a widely cited paper to our Journal of Creation. Both papers are freely available online. The first is titled: Methuselah’s begetting age in Genesis 5:25 and the primeval chronology of the Septuagint: a closer look at the textual and historical evidence.1 The second is titled: The case for the Septuagint’s chronology in Genesis 5 and 11.2. Due to the sheer number, quotes from these papers will be parenthetically cited as “ARJ” or “ICC” along with a page or note number.

Smith did not have to address our prior work, but in ICC (p. 120) he systematically misinterprets our main arguments before concluding, “Cosner and Carter deduce that the MT’s chronology is original, a conclusion that was baked into the methodological cake from the outset.” (ICC p. 120). This shows that he does not know how we came to our parsimonious text, which we have refined and will hopefully be presenting an updated version of soon. There were a few weaknesses in our first work, which he could have pointed out. Instead, he issued a general denouncement without showing that he actually understood the methodology. Yet, there are weaknesses which pervade both of Smith’s papers. First is the oddly stilted and selective nature of the bibliography. Why are there so many obscure chronographers while the best MT supporters are not even mentioned, or quickly dismissed? Why does Smith not note the multiplicity of opinions regarding which text is superior and why changes might have been made? Why does Smith cite supporting witnesses from the 12th century, but not Bede, an important opposing witness from the turn of the 8th? Simply put, his bibliography does not look like he started out with an unbiased search for the truth. There are far too many secondary sources, and there are far too many obscure, hard-to-find authors from only several centuries ago. One cannot trace many of his claims back to primary sources.

When examining Smith’s work, a problem with his sources comes up (the introductory paragraph in the ARJ paper). Concerning the date differences between the MT and LXX, he says “Eusebius (AD 260–340) is the first known author to explicitly cite and discuss the divergences, followed by Ephraem of Syria (AD 306–373)…” (ARJ, p. 169). But in the note for that statement, he says,

“Ephraem of Syria is the first known ancient source to explicitly argue that the Jewish rabbis of the second century AD deflated the primeval chronology by ca. 1300 years in their Hebrew MSS for the purpose of discrediting Jesus as the Christ: ‘The Jews have subtracted 600 years [in Genesis 5] from the generations of Adam, Seth, etc., in order that their own books might not convict them concerning the coming of CHRIST: he having been predicted to appear for the deliverance of mankind after 5500 years.’ Cited in: Hales (1830, 278). For additional citations of Ephraem’s claims, see: Assemani (1719), Wacholder (1974, 99), and Anstey (1913, 46).” (ARJ, note 3, all punctuation and italics in original).

But Smith did not cite an original source for the Ephraem quote. As good students of biblical scholarship, we should trace everything back to the original if possible. But after repeated attempts, we were not able to authenticate this quote by Ephraem the Syrian, nor to trace it further back than Hales (who Smith referenced in the quote above). This is a critical piece of evidence for those that support the LXX’s authority. Smith repeats claims of some ancient authors that the Jews deflated the primeval chronology. There is no traceable evidence of a gathering of Jewish leaders that would have the ability or the authority to do this. The burden of proof is on Smith to document when and where the Jews decided to take this route, and how they implemented it. Smith also cites the Bibliotheca Orientalis by J.S. Assemani for the ‘deflation’ claim, which would take it back about a century (to the 1700s). I (LC) tried to find this quote in the massive four-volume work, which is written entirely in foreign languages, but given that Smith did not give a clue as to where the quote was contained therein, I was unable to authenticate it. I was also unable to get a copy of Wacholder. While Anstey also references the quote, he does not give an original source. Furthermore, Anstey clearly asserts that Ephraem was wrong in his claim! In any case, the quote by Ephraem is not admissible if it is not able to be traced back to an original source. And the burden of documentation proof is on the one who would admit it as evidence.

Yet, Ephraem the Syrian wrote a commentary on Genesis. One might expect to be able to ascertain his specific interest in chronology, and what text he was drawing from, by consulting that work. In his comment on Genesis 5, Ephraem says,

“Then after he [Moses] had finished writing about the tribes of the descendants of Cain and had completed the story of the words of Lamech to his wives, [Moses] turned to record the generations of the house of Seth, beginning from Adam, saying that when Adam had lived one hundred thirty years, he begot a son in his own likeness according to his image.”3

But the LXX has “230” years for Adam’s age when Seth was born. Ephraem also says that Noah was 500 when he bore his sons, about which all traditions agree.

A statement in Ephraem’s commentary conclusively shows he was using a MT-like chronology. Regarding Melchizedek, he says:

“This Melchizedek is Shem … Shem lived not only to the time of Abraham, as Scripture says, but even to [the time of] Jacob and Esau, the grandsons of Abraham.”4

This statement is true if we use the MT chronology, but is impossible with an LXX-like chronology, for with the extended ages of paternity in the LXX chronology of Genesis 11, Shem would have been long since dead. How can anyone claim that Ephraem viewed the MT chronology as a corruption by unbelieving Jews, when he was happy to use it in multiple places in his Genesis commentary?

Smith’s quote above claims to be from Ephraem the Syrian, but it is not yet traceable back to anything Ephraem the Syrian wrote. We could not authenticate it and Smith provides no way for anyone else to effectively do so. Furthermore, Ephraem’s extant work includes a commentary on Genesis in which he uses the Masoretic text!

A helpful reader was able to provide us with the Wacholder reference. This allowed us to pinpoint the specific location of the quote within Assemani's Biblioteca Orientalis. Assemani traces the quote to Ephraem’s Exposition of Genesis and Exodus, which as we showed uses an MT chronology and lacks any such statement by Ephraem.

We are unable to trace the quote further than Assemani. In any case, it is clear that an entire line of scholars, from the 18th through the early 20th centuries, transmitted an apparently fake quote. This has been cited by numerous modern LXX advocates who also did not bother to authenticate it. We have attempted exactly that, and not only were we unable to do so, but we found strong evidence that Ephraem believed no such thing.

The situation doesn’t get any better when we try to verify what Smith said in the second half of this one sentence. Here it is in full:

“Eusebius (AD 206–340) is the first known author to explicitly cite and discuss the divergences, followed by Ephraem of Syria, Jerome, (AD 340–420), Julian of Toledo (AD 642–690), Jacob of Edessa (AD 640–708), Byzantine chronology George Syncellus (d. AD 810), and Armenian annalist Bar Hebraeus (AD 1226–1286), just to make a few” (ARJ, pp. 169, 171).

Following that, he claims:

“Each of these ancient authors (save Jerome) argued that the Jewish rabbis in the second century AD deflated the primeval chronology by ca. 1300 years in their Hebrew manuscripts to discredit Jesus as Messiah” (ARJ, note 4).

We have examined Ephraem of Syria and found no such thing. Eusebius argues for the superiority of the LXX, but as Smith admits in the very same note, “Eusebius does not attribute the motive to messianic chronology and discrediting Jesus, [sic] rather, their purpose was to encourage their contemporaries to lower their age of marrying” (ARJ, note 4).

The Jewish Encyclopedia claims Julian of Toledo accused the Jews of falsifying their chronology in connection with an argument that the Messiah was to arrive in the “sixth age”.5

We had to search for this information, however, because Smith did not provide this source as a reference. Rather, his source says that the Jews were basing their eschatological interpretation on the Babylonian Talmud. It also claims that Julian of Toledo’s refutation:

“ … interprets the texts of the New Testament that explicitly point to Jesus Christ as the Messiah foretold by the prophets of the ancient covenant, whose texts are interpreted by the apostolic writers as indicating the fullness of time, and not following the calculation of years. Jesus, the Messiah, was in fact born precisely in the fullness of times. It is, therefore, not the calculation of years that counts, as the Jewish scholars maintain, but rather the whole of the historical facts in which Jesus presents himself as the true Messiah of God.”6

This LXX-supporting witness defines the “sixth age” by epochs demarcated by events in salvation history, not by calendar dates. This is the same argument that Bede (who was clearly a MT supporter) used in his Letter to Plegwin.7
 

Andrew

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I know you didn't summon me, but I have always wondered why on earth would a Christian receive a non-Christian text for their Bible of the Old Testament...

Jewish Scribes, translated the ancient Hebraic text into Greek, and this was the Bible used by the Jews at the time of Christ throughout the Jewish Diaspora...

It was the OT Bible of the Christians...

The Masoretic OT was not completed for another thousand years or so after Christ, and was a product that was created by a non-Christian community that hated Christians...

Indeed that had been persecuting Christians from the time of Christ...

The Septuagint Bible in Greek is THE Christian Old Testament...

The rest by now are pretty much brain-toys for post modern scholarship...

When I cite a text in Greek, I use this site:

http://classic.studylight.org/isb/b...n=0&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=byz&Enter=Perform+Search

And I select the Byzantine NT text and the LXX for the Old...


Arsenios

I summons all lol I just figured Albion would know a thing or two about Melchezedic (sp) given his masonry and Josiah because he thrives on theology and Menno because he is firmly footed in biblical literacy as well, but my bad Arsenios lol I forgot that you are a scholar in the greek Septuagint and language!
 

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Anybody ever studied Psalm 145?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Josiah

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.
 
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Andrew

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[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


Disclaimer, I didn't spend 33 minutes watching this. Frankly, I would not have spent 3 minutes watching it. But....

Since you specifically request that I reply (I typically stay FAR AWAY from such speculations and from any mixture of science and religion).....


Three thoughts:


1. I really dislike the whole epistemology of self asking self a question, appointing self to answer it, declaring self correct, and then seeing if God (in Scripture) agrees with self and thus God is right or disagrees with self and thus God (and/or the Bible) has a problem.


2. My Greek Orthodox friend is fond of saying "Christians don't seem to know how to shut up." My Theology prof once said, "Rarely is heresy caused by saying too little but by saying too much." Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." But of course, humility and shutting up doesn't sell books or get subscribers.


3. I accept that the Bible is inerrant. But I also accept that the purpose of the Bible is two-fold: To show us God's will (the Law) and heart (the Gospel). It is dangerous to regard it as a 21st Century Physics book or History book. I reject EISEGESIS - which is putting INTO the Bible what was never intended. For example, you can find on the internet (EVERYTHING, LOL) that the planet Earth is small, square and flat - all "proven" by Scriptures, and YES, if you read the Bible as an Astrophysics textbook, that absurd spin is possible, but I think 99.999999999% of us read those Scriptures and realize that's not the topic at all. TOO MUCH can be read INTO the Bible. "These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that by believing, you may have life in His name."




.

You didn't watch the video so why would I read your reply? I just saw what looked like to be a bunch of assumptions that have 0 to do with the video.... don't respond unless it has to do specifically with the OP content please, then we can discuss
 

Josiah

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You didn't watch the video so why would I read your reply? I just saw what looked like to be a bunch of assumptions that have 0 to do with the video.... don't respond unless it has to do specifically with the OP content please, then we can discuss


Okay, you send me a MENTION and ASKED me to reply.

I'll delete my post.
 

Andrew

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Okay, you send me a MENTION and ASKED me to reply.

I'll delete my post.
I asked you to watch the video, you didn't bother to watch it, yet you reply with something that has nothing to do with the contents of this thread.
And since you will probably never watch the contents in the video yes your point is void and not what I asked for.
 

Andrew

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Okay, you send me a MENTION and ASKED me to reply.

I'll delete my post.
I would seriously like a discussion over the video Josiah, I provided time stamps for your convenience... and really you should give the full video a shot since it's produced by our new member Nathan, you can take notes and point out any mistakes or problems you have with the information he provided. A well rounded discussion is all I ask for and I apologize if I sounded short with you, I find this subject enlightening for both of us, try the spirits, rightly divide but at least participate because that's why I mentioned you in the first place, you always provide good arguments.
 

NathanH83

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At least watch the first 5 seconds. You might find it enjoyable. I tried to make it as entertaining as I could, for people with a short attention span and need a good laugh every now and then.
 

Andrew

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At least watch the first 5 seconds. You might find it enjoyable. I tried to make it as entertaining as I could, for people with a short attention span and need a good laugh every now and then.
It's such a good production, very entertaining indeed! I love the Mel Gibson crying scene lol so true
 

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"were the pyramids built before the flood?"

there was no universal flood, certainly not one the engulfed the whole world and most likely not one that covered any of the great pyramids.
 

NathanH83

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"were the pyramids built before the flood?"

there was no universal flood, certainly not one the engulfed the whole world and most likely not one that covered any of the great pyramids.

Wow. Like I haven't heard that one before.
 
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