I hear - I know people who go to church but are not saved. How do you know?

Wilhemena

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?
 

MennoSota

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?
What made Paul confident about the Thessalonians being redeemed?
1 Thessalonians 1:4-10
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
 

MennoSota

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What did Paul say about Hymenaeus and Alexander?
1 Timothy 1:18-20
This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
 

Josiah

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?


I agree with the implication you share here.....


IMO, where there is faith in Jesus as our SAVIOR, there is justification. It's not the quality or quantity of faith that matters... it's not intellectual certainty or doubt or content that matters.... it's the object that matters.



IMO, SOME can fall into this "pit" of which you speak:

1. SOME extreme Calvinists because they cannot know if Jesus actually is their Savior (their faith may be moot)
2. SOME Catholics because they cannot know if they've "tapped" God's help sufficiently, If they have done enough, loved enough, done their "part"
3. SOME extreme Arminianists because they can wonder about the genuiness and quality and sincerity of their faith, whether they REALLY believe.


But IMO, the point is JESUS. He IS the SAVIOR. He is MY Savior (cuz He died for EVERYONE, so EVEN ME is included!). My faith in HIM as the SAVIOR means I benefit from it. "Get your eyes off you, placed them on the Cross" (Old Protestant proverb).


Now, I'd agree..... the gift of faith CAN be damaged, perhaps even wrecked entirely... so what we do CAN impact that. But that's another subject for another day and thread.




.
 
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Lamb

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?

You can't know if they aren't saved and neither do any of those self-righteous people who make such claims. God hasn't given them a crystal ball to see if they have faith or not. If they turn from God, do not repent, and reject the Savior, we can question their faith. But to make the overgeneralized statement that many go to church and are not saved is not something THEY can prove!
 

tango

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?

Jesus said we would know people by their fruits.

If someone attends church on a Sunday morning and then spends Sunday afternoon gossiping, and spends the remaining 166 hours of the week living as if there were no God, one might question their salvation.

As to whether any specific individual is saved - that's not for us to know. We cannot judge the heart but we can (and should) judge the fruit.
 

Andrew

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?
We can't see Gods mark on others and we cannot know their hearts. I was convicted of having "demons" on me at my last church which is why I left, I was sick with a cold so I wasn't very interactive and they were quick to assume. We do not know Gods election and we don't know if God is working in them, the flesh is stubborn but the spirit is willing.
I couldn't tell for sure one way or another if God has plans for them in the future, that is not my call, as we assemble however we should judge and rightly divide scripture if they are not truly preaching the word of God, that is a duty that we are to judge the congregations and to not participate in false teachings.
 

Albion

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?
It's a presumption based upon knowing that some people are there for other reasons--dragged there by family members, there because of business contacts, or there because or they are interested in spiritual matters and ethical values but have no actual commitment to Christ as one's Lord and personal Savior, for example.

We all know a few churchgoers who are like that, so the comment is reasonable. Usually, there's no intent on the part of people who make that statement to identify who is who or to count noses; it's just a general observation.
 

NewCreation435

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We can't know for sure about someone else's salvation. Ultimately if they say that they are followers of Christ we have to take their word for it. I believe Paul once said that he didn't even judge himself
 

tango

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I could make a bet that you have all heard the saying that there are many who go to church but are not saved and I can't help but want to ask you how do you know? Have they renounced our great Lord in front of you to assuredly make such a statement?

Thinking about this some more, I can say for a fact that at least some people go to church without being saved. When I was about 14 I used to go to church almost every Sunday. I didn't care about God or Jesus or the Bible. I cared about the cute girl in the choir. There were times I even read one of the readings or helped with some other aspect of the church, but the simple reality was that I was more interested in the girl in the choir than in any of the proceedings in the church. After a time I could recite just about the entire service from memory but it still meant virtually nothing to me, beyond the chance to get closer to the cute girl in the choir.
 

tango

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One other thought (a new post because it's totally unrelated to the previous one).

Some years ago I was exploring church options in the area I was considering moving to. One church seemed to tick enough boxes to be worth exploring further, but the last Sunday before I left the area I experienced something that made me stop and think. Towards the end of the service I had a vision that was like individual flames descending on the congregation, but only on some members. I'd say that there was about one flame per three people present. The crucial thing was that I could see the approximate number of flames but without any indication of exactly who had them and who did not. That last part is what I found interesting - the idea that many people present weren't necessarily "into it" to the extent one might expect but without any sense of judging individuals. It led me to conclude that many people there were just going through the motions but without so much as the slightest sense of trying to gauge who was a true believer and who was not. Essentially, it was an insight into the church as a whole rather than any specific individual.

As it turned out the next time I visited the area I went back to the church and it was barely recognizable. I'd talked with the pastor a couple of times during the previous visit - he was very keen to talk and tell me more about his church - but when I went back he completely ignored me (he literally looked straight at me, then turned back and carried on with what he was doing without even saying hello). The sermon was so thin as to be pointless and the singing was about as half-hearted and uninspired as I could imagine. I tried it one more time and nothing had changed, so I scratched the idea of that becoming our new church and looked elsewhere.
 

Lamb

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Thinking about this some more, I can say for a fact that at least some people go to church without being saved. When I was about 14 I used to go to church almost every Sunday. I didn't care about God or Jesus or the Bible. I cared about the cute girl in the choir. There were times I even read one of the readings or helped with some other aspect of the church, but the simple reality was that I was more interested in the girl in the choir than in any of the proceedings in the church. After a time I could recite just about the entire service from memory but it still meant virtually nothing to me, beyond the chance to get closer to the cute girl in the choir.

Sure there are SOME who might not be saved but the OP stated "many". Did you really think that there were many others alongside you? At the churches I've attended I have yet to meet someone who rejected the Savior.
 

psalms 91

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Many reject Him every day by ignoring the spirit, not spending time communing with Him and never developing that close personal relationship with Him. There is a lot more to our walk with Christ but many do not walk with Him at all. Think about it, there is a lot more to it than just showing up in church
 

tango

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Sure there are SOME who might not be saved but the OP stated "many". Did you really think that there were many others alongside you? At the churches I've attended I have yet to meet someone who rejected the Savior.

It seems naive to assume I was the only one in church at that time who was there for some other reason. As far as "some" versus "many" is concerned it's a fairly vague division between the two. When I was going to church to see the cute choirgirl I could talk a good game, I could practically recite all the prayers and creeds from memory, they just didn't really mean much to me.

How many others in that particular church were just going through the motions is something I couldn't possibly answer. But if you were to talk to someone in church who was just going through the motions it seems unlikely they would be forthcoming with their rejection of Christ, whether through overt rejection or passive non-acceptance. When Jesus said about how "not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom" he is very clear that some of the people rejected will be surprised by the fact.
 

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It seems naive to assume I was the only one in church at that time who was there for some other reason. As far as "some" versus "many" is concerned it's a fairly vague division between the two. When I was going to church to see the cute choirgirl I could talk a good game, I could practically recite all the prayers and creeds from memory, they just didn't really mean much to me.

How many others in that particular church were just going through the motions is something I couldn't possibly answer. But if you were to talk to someone in church who was just going through the motions it seems unlikely they would be forthcoming with their rejection of Christ, whether through overt rejection or passive non-acceptance. When Jesus said about how "not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom" he is very clear that some of the people rejected will be surprised by the fact.

So unless the church goer puts his full heart into every word and song he isn't a believer? That doesn't sound right. There are going to be days when you're not feeling well or stressed about a life situation and just being in church hearing the word makes the difference. Not how much effort YOU make while there.
 

tango

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So unless the church goer puts his full heart into every word and song he isn't a believer? That doesn't sound right. There are going to be days when you're not feeling well or stressed about a life situation and just being in church hearing the word makes the difference. Not how much effort YOU make while there.

I fear you completely missed my point there.

When I was going through the motions I had zero interest in the proceedings and much interest in the choirgirl. There's a world of difference between that and someone struggling through church on one particular Sunday because they are having a tough time.
 

Lamb

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I fear you completely missed my point there.

When I was going through the motions I had zero interest in the proceedings and much interest in the choirgirl. There's a world of difference between that and someone struggling through church on one particular Sunday because they are having a tough time.

But do you think there are MANY like you? I haven't met one person in the churches I've attended who reject the Savior. I went to small churches so I knew almost everyone there.
 

Wilhemena

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The general consensus here on the website is that we cannot know and thank you, that is my opinion as it is yours.
 

Albion

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But do you think there are MANY like you? I haven't met one person in the churches I've attended who reject the Savior. I went to small churches so I knew almost everyone there.

Is it worth mentioning that when this discussion got started, the point was not whether there are people in the churches who reject the Savior, but whether "there are many who go to church but are not saved."

There's quite a difference between those two, isn't there?
 

tango

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But do you think there are MANY like you? I haven't met one person in the churches I've attended who reject the Savior. I went to small churches so I knew almost everyone there.

It would depend on your scope and your definition of "many". Up and down the country I'm sure there are huge numbers of people just like I was. In a church of 10 people it's doubtful.

And as Albion said there's a huge difference between people who actively reject Christ and people who have passively declined to accept Christ. There's also a huge difference between people who are overt about where they are spiritually, people who think they are saved but are in for a shock and people who talk the talk even if they categorically do not walk the walk.
 
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