work out your own salvation Php 2:12

atpollard · Jan 28, 2019

Andrew said:
OSAS means the same as the P in TULIP imo, but you are referring to OSAS as a loose word people throw around correct? I can understand that if it's what you are implying...
We may know by their fruits, but just because someone can claim OSAS while displaying unfruitfulness it doesn't mean that we know for certain that God is not working in them and we just caught them at the wrong time, Perseverance of the Saints is imo OSAS when it applies to the Elect/believer. Do you agree?

I would not go so far as to say that someone with no evidence of increase in the Fruit of the Spirit is unsaved, that requires knowledge and sight beyond what I possess (the ability to see the soul of another through the eyes of God). However, just as I would caution a man who drinks Vodka for breakfast that he may be an alcoholic and should take care to examine himself, so I would caution a man living a life devoid of the spirit that he may yet be a sinner and should take care to examine himself.

[Mat 7:16-21 NIV] 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I feel that it is no more or less my place than to just pass on Jesus’ warning and let God’s word and their conscience declare them ‘innocent’ or ‘guilty’.
I measure myself against the same yardstick and typically find my growth only lackluster ... but I can say with confidence that “I may not be what I should be, but Praise God, I am not what I once was!”

MennoSota · Jan 28, 2019

Andrew said:
All I am saying is that it is not up to us to determine if someone has changed or not just by our "feeling" as a believer, this is what turns me off to most churches is that they poke at you and then wait for a response, if it does not sit well with them then they are quick to say "bro you got demons still, you aren't saved at all"...
I understand TULIP because it makes sense to me, it does not mean that a Catholic is not a believer, or that a Pentecostal is not a believer, it means that all believers are parts of the Body of Christ.

I understand it's not up to us.
Andrew, is one who is filled with the Holy Spirit going to live like a son of the devil? How can we know? Hint: Read Galatians 5.
I have little doubt that God has his elect in many different denominations.

Lamb · Jan 29, 2019

Andrew said:
If faith is given by God is it full blown or does he sometimes give a little faith to some people? I believe faith is full blown absolute faith and that if God can't turn you away from sin or keep your eyes fixed on him -then you surely can't do it yourself and thus you don't have faith and never had it.
God keeps you and doesn't fail at giving you full faith. We may fail him but he perfects us and never gives up on his people.

The Holy Spirit gives out faith in the quantity He sees fit to have that person grow in wisdom. Remember that the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains...and I have never done that yet. Have you? LOL

Lamb · Jan 29, 2019

atpollard said:
I am not looking to argue, just making sure I understand your position ... GOD gives faith, and people have the power to reject the gift (give it back, as it were) through deliberate, unrepented sin.
Is that a fair understanding of your position?

Man can reject the Savior by not believing in Him. Even Paul first rejected Jesus...and he was a Hebrew who believed in the Messiah!! So he at one time WAS a believer.

If we intentionally sin and do not repent we risk becoming unbelievers. Repentance is comprised not only of turning away from sin but turning TO God. The unrepentant is refusing to turn to God. He is on the road to rejection of the Savior. How soon that happens or even how often is not given in scripture but falling away from faith is warned about in the verses I gave in the other post.

NewCreation435 · Jan 29, 2019

Lämmchen said:
If you sin and don't turn back to God, you could fall from faith. That's the difference. Repentance is turning away from sin and toward God. When someone repeatedly sins and doesn't repent, he isn't turning back to God and could lose faith all together.

I guess your not seeing the inconsistency. When Calvinist stress the Sovereignty of God they are saying that even your faith is a gift from God. And if your truly saved then God will be able to keep you saved and give you the faith to continue to belief. So, if you "don't turn back to God" they would say that you really weren't saved to begin with. Because if you were you wouldn't lose your salvation.
On the other hand, stressing "free will" and not Sovereignty does exactly the opposite. It means I could potentially lose my faith several times a day because it is all about me and works.
The struggle that I am seeing on this forum is that people tend to go one way or the other because they aren't capable of holding in tension that the Bible affirms both God's Sovereignty and free will.

MennoSota · Jan 29, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Man can reject the Savior by not believing in Him. Even Paul first rejected Jesus...and he was a Hebrew who believed in the Messiah!! So he at one time WAS a believer.

If we intentionally sin and do not repent we risk becoming unbelievers. Repentance is comprised not only of turning away from sin but turning TO God. The unrepentant is refusing to turn to God. He is on the road to rejection of the Savior. How soon that happens or even how often is not given in scripture but falling away from faith is warned about in the verses I gave in the other post.

You make salvation dependent upon human action with God being a mere observer.
Does John 6, John 10, John 17, Romans 8 simply not apply?

MennoSota · Jan 29, 2019

jsimms435 said:
I guess your not seeing the inconsistency. When Calvinist stress the Sovereignty of God they are saying that even your faith is a gift from God. And if your truly saved then God will be able to keep you saved and give you the faith to continue to belief. So, if you "don't turn back to God" they would say that you really weren't saved to begin with. Because if you were you wouldn't lose your salvation.
On the other hand, stressing "free will" and not Sovereignty does exactly the opposite. It means I could potentially lose my faith several times a day because it is all about me and works.
The struggle that I am seeing on this forum is that people tend to go one way or the other because they aren't capable of holding in tension that the Bible affirms both God's Sovereignty and free will.

Perhaps Jesus words seem inconsistent to you.

John 6:35-40
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

John 17:9-10
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 18:8-9
Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”

NewCreation435 · Jan 29, 2019

MennoSota said:
Perhaps Jesus words seem inconsistent to you.

John 6:35-40
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

John 17:9-10
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 18:8-9
Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.”

Those aren't the passages I was referring to. Though, I think your taking John 18:8-9 out of context. Those were Jesus words in the garden when he was arrested. He said to let these men go because they might have otherwise arrested them also and hindered them from sharing the gospel in the future.
The appearance of inconsistency that I refer to is that the Bible affirms both free will and God's Sovereignty. People like yourself tend to see one but not to acknowledge the other. Calvinistic does nothing but make people like puppets on big strings being directed by God without a will of their own. While Arminian beliefs tend to emphasize free will and reject or water down the Sovereignty of God. What you don't realize is that one of the mysteries of God is that the Bible affirms both Sovereignty and free will.
This may appear to be unexplainable, but I'm okay with that because we have an infinite God. He shouldn't be easy to explain. There is an element of the nature of God that will always be a mystery to us. Our little minds just can't grasp it.

MennoSota · Jan 29, 2019

jsimms435 said:
Those aren't the passages I was referring to. Though, I think your taking John 18:8-9 out of context. Those were Jesus words in the garden when he was arrested. He said to let these men go because they might have otherwise arrested them also and hindered them from sharing the gospel in the future.
The appearance of inconsistency that I refer to is that the Bible affirms both free will and God's Sovereignty. People like yourself tend to see one but not to acknowledge the other. Calvinistic does nothing but make people like puppets on big strings being directed by God without a will of their own. While Arminian beliefs tend to emphasize free will and reject or water down the Sovereignty of God. What you don't realize is that one of the mysteries of God is that the Bible affirms both Sovereignty and free will.
This may appear to be unexplainable, but I'm okay with that because we have an infinite God. He shouldn't be easy to explain. There is an element of the nature of God that will always be a mystery to us. Our little minds just can't grasp it.

No, the Bible does not affirm free will in regards to salvation. You infer free will into the scripture by virtue of philosophical high jumping.
I quoted Jesus to show you exactly what he says about those whom the Father gives him.

Lamb · Jan 29, 2019

jsimms435 said:
I guess your not seeing the inconsistency. When Calvinist stress the Sovereignty of God they are saying that even your faith is a gift from God. And if your truly saved then God will be able to keep you saved and give you the faith to continue to belief. So, if you "don't turn back to God" they would say that you really weren't saved to begin with. Because if you were you wouldn't lose your salvation.
On the other hand, stressing "free will" and not Sovereignty does exactly the opposite. It means I could potentially lose my faith several times a day because it is all about me and works.
The struggle that I am seeing on this forum is that people tend to go one way or the other because they aren't capable of holding in tension that the Bible affirms both God's Sovereignty and free will.

Did you read the verses I supplied? They would not have been included in the bible if they weren't true. If man couldn't fall away, there wouldn't have been a warning.

MennoSota · Jan 29, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Did you read the verses I supplied? They would not have been included in the bible if they weren't true. If man couldn't fall away, there wouldn't have been a warning.

Which verses are you specifically referring to?
Do they directly contradict Jesus words in John 6, John 10 and John 17? Do the directly contradict Paul's words in Romans 8?
Please share the context around the phrase you are selecting as you proof so we can look at the full scope of what the writer was trying to get across to his readers.
But first, what are the specific verses?

Andrew · Jan 29, 2019

Lämmchen said:
The Holy Spirit gives out faith in the quantity He sees fit to have that person grow in wisdom. Remember that the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains...and I have never done that yet. Have you? LOL

There are no mountains for me to practise on where I live

I do know that I can't walk on water

Andrew · Jan 29, 2019

MennoSota said:
I understand it's not up to us.
Andrew, is one who is filled with the Holy Spirit going to live like a son of the devil? How can we know? Hint: Read Galatians 5.
I have little doubt that God has his elect in many different denominations.

It's exactly why reading and hearing the gospel is so important because there is much confusion without it and there is no guidance without knowing the gospel.
If someone came up to you and told you "there is a heaven which is lovely, but there is a hell which is terrible, believe in this fellow named Jesus and you go to heaven" you would probably say "ok I believe in Jesus" but there is no guidance and you are in complete ignorance of scripture and are left in the dark.
There are those who confess Christ but I don't know their hearts, but they live the "thug life" and continue to break laws and hurt people and sell drugs etc... one thing I can testify that faith has granted me is respect for the law, God has chosen and appointed government to place laws that we should abide to... indeed a hostile and reckless attitude toward justice and towards life in generally is ungodly and is complete lawlessness, even so I have seen in my experience a transformation and respect towards authority when before I was reckless and lawless. Just because I tattoo a small cross under my eye does not mean that I am a believer, sadly many people continue to brand idols on themselves and wear jewelry that they believe seals them from evil while they remain evil and ignorant of the word.

NewCreation435 · Jan 29, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Did you read the verses I supplied? They would not have been included in the bible if they weren't true. If man couldn't fall away, there wouldn't have been a warning.

Yes, I'm well aware of the verses. There are even some more difficult ones you didn't mention in Hebrews. I'm not disputing that there are verses that say that. I am asking how do you harmonize both the verses that emphasize God's Sovereignty and also man's free will. Because that tension is clearly there.

atpollard · Jan 29, 2019

Andrew said:
There are no mountains for me to practise on where I live
I do know that I can't walk on water

Neither could Saint Peter, unless Jesus commanded it and held his hand.

Lamb · Jan 30, 2019

jsimms435 said:
Yes, I'm well aware of the verses. There are even some more difficult ones you didn't mention in Hebrews. I'm not disputing that there are verses that say that. I am asking how do you harmonize both the verses that emphasize God's Sovereignty and also man's free will. Because that tension is clearly there.

I don't believe there is free will for salvation. The will is bound to sin. John 15:16 states it is not our decision.

NewCreation435 · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
I don't believe there is free will for salvation. The will is bound to sin. John 15:16 states it is not our decision.

That's one way to interpret that verse. John 15:16 says
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

Another way to interpret that is that Jesus was not here talking about salvation, but choosing the disciples in their role as apostles. In other words, he is saying, "I chose you to be apostles and appointed you to go and bear fruit. . . " I think it is important to remember the context. That here Jesus is not speaking to the crowds, but to his disciples

Lamb · Jan 30, 2019

jsimms435 said:
That's one way to interpret that verse. John 15:16 says
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

Another way to interpret that is that Jesus was not here talking about salvation, but choosing the disciples in their role as apostles. In other words, he is saying, "I chose you to be apostles and appointed you to go and bear fruit. . . " I think it is important to remember the context. That here Jesus is not speaking to the crowds, but to his disciples

It doesn't only apply to the 12. Read all of John 12. If you think this verse doesn't apply to us then there is a great deal else that you must choose to think doesn't apply...and I have to disagree entirely with you. Read it all.

NewCreation435 · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
It doesn't only apply to the 12. Read all of John 12. If you think this verse doesn't apply to us then there is a great deal else that you must choose to think doesn't apply...and I have to disagree entirely with you. Read it all.

I am assuming you mean John 15. I would reject the idea that the rest of the teaching doesn't apply to us. But, verse 16 seems specifically to mention the apostles in particular. He is here briefly interrupting his discourse to address them personally. he says
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

He is addressing those present specifically. Notice the words "you" or "yours" is used 7 times in one verse

Adam Clarke in his commentary on this passage sees it differently. He sees Jesus mention of calling these as referring to their calling into the ministry and not salvation at all

He says
"Ye have not chosen me - Ye have not elected me as your Teacher: I have called you to be my disciples; witnesses and depositories of the truth. It was customary among the Jews for every person to choose his own teacher.

And ordained you - Rather, I have appointed you: the word is εθηκα, I have Put or placed you, i.e. in the vine.

Theodorus Mopsuensis, as quoted by Wetstein, observes that εθηκα is here used for εφυτευσα ; (I have planted); "and, in saying this, our Lord still makes use of the metaphor of the vine; as if he had said: I have not only planted you, but I have given you the greatest benefits, causing your branches to extend every where through the habitable world."

The first ministers of the Gospel were the choice of Jesus Christ; no wonder, then, that they were so successful. Those whom men have since sent, without the appointment of God, have done no good. The choice should still continue with God, who, knowing the heart, knows best who is most proper for the Gospel ministry."

Lamb · Jan 30, 2019

jsimms435 said:
I am assuming you mean John 15. I would reject the idea that the rest of the teaching doesn't apply to us. But, verse 16 seems specifically to mention the apostles in particular. He is here briefly interrupting his discourse to address them personally. he says
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

He is addressing those present specifically. Notice the words "you" or "yours" is used 7 times in one verse

Adam Clarke in his commentary on this passage sees it differently. He sees Jesus mention of calling these as referring to their calling into the ministry and not salvation at all

He says
"Ye have not chosen me - Ye have not elected me as your Teacher: I have called you to be my disciples; witnesses and depositories of the truth. It was customary among the Jews for every person to choose his own teacher.

And ordained you - Rather, I have appointed you: the word is εθηκα, I have Put or placed you, i.e. in the vine.

Theodorus Mopsuensis, as quoted by Wetstein, observes that εθηκα is here used for εφυτευσα ; (I have planted); "and, in saying this, our Lord still makes use of the metaphor of the vine; as if he had said: I have not only planted you, but I have given you the greatest benefits, causing your branches to extend every where through the habitable world."

The first ministers of the Gospel were the choice of Jesus Christ; no wonder, then, that they were so successful. Those whom men have since sent, without the appointment of God, have done no good. The choice should still continue with God, who, knowing the heart, knows best who is most proper for the Gospel ministry."

I find it strange that you feel the rest of the scripture can apply to us though...like you're being selective.

work out your own salvation Php 2:12

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Matt 18:15

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