Understanding Election

atpollard · Jan 24, 2019

Let’s talk about ELECTION using Scripture as our starting point.

The word ‘elect’ is from “eklektos” and is Strong’s [G1588]. Here are all the scripture verses where it appears for handy reference:

[Mat 22:14 NASB] 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."[G1588]
[Mat 24:22, 24, 31 NASB] 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect[G1588] those days will be cut short. ... 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.[G1588] ... 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
[Mar 13:20, 22, 27 NASB] 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened [those] days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect,[G1588] whom He chose, He shortened the days. ... 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.[G1588] ... 27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect[G1588] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
[Luk 18:7 NASB] 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect[G1588] who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
[Luk 23:35 NASB] 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen[G1588] One."[G1588]
[Rom 8:33 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect?[G1588] God is the one who justifies;
[Rom 16:13 NASB] 13 Greet Rufus, a choice[G1588] man[G1588] in the Lord, also his mother and mine.
[Col 3:12 NASB] 12 So, as those who have been chosen[G1588] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
[1Ti 5:21 NASB] 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of [His] chosen[G1588] angels, to maintain these [principles] without bias, doing nothing in a [spirit of] partiality.
[2Ti 2:10 NASB] 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen,[G1588] so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus [and] with [it] eternal glory.
[Tit 1:1 NASB] 1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen[G1588] of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
[1Pe 1:1 NASB] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen[G1588]
[1Pe 2:4, 6, 9 NASB] 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice[G1588] and precious in the sight of God, ... 6 For [this] is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE[G1588] STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER [stone,] AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 9 But you are A CHOSEN[G1588] RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR [God's] OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
[2Jo 1:1, 13 NASB] 1 The elder to the chosen[G1588] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, ... 13 The children of your chosen[G1588] sister greet you.
[Rev 17:14 NASB] 14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him [are the] called and chosen[G1588] and faithful."

Strong’s Definition is ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; from G1586; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.

So ... What does it mean to be “chosen” (Matthew 22:14)?

MennoSota · Jan 24, 2019

The Old Testament helps us.
We see Adam and Eve being chosen as the first humans.
Able's sacrifice was chosen over Cain's.
The line of Seth chosen over Cain.
Noah chosen to carry on the human race.
Abraham chosen out of Ur.
Jacob chosen over Esau.
Moses chosen to lead Israel.
Judges chosen to lead Israel.
David chosen as King and his offspring chosen to rule forever.
Israel chosen over the other nations.
Prophets chosen by God.
John the Baptist chosen as a voice calling in the wilderness.

From the very beginning, God has exercised His Sovereign authority in election. The New Testament continues God's consistent, authoritative election.

Josiah · Jan 25, 2019

There are two very different understandings of Election/Predestination*

Extreme Calvinism: God predestines ALL to either heaven or hell (most to hell). It is His soverign will that most go to hell and some to heaven, and THEREFORE that's what He causes to happen and THEREFORE that's what happens.

Traditional Christianity: The Bible, the Fathers and the Ecumenical Council of Orange all present this as pure Gospel, meant to comfort and assure (and it supports monergism). Before the very foundations of the world, God loved us and chose us as His very own... and nothing can separate us from that love, love which obviously is unconditional and unearned since we were supersaturated with such before we were even born and thus before we did or said or thought or choose anything.

Illustration...

I have two older, living siblings, both were pregnancies and births that went perfectly. But I have two older siblings that resulted in the baby dying, one a few weeks before the "due" date and one full term. Mom had exactly the same problem with me and I had the exact same defect as those two older, died brothers ... the docs said there was a 50/50 chance that I'd live. My parents (even my two siblings) told me (very often.... often at my request) how much they loved me, while I was still in the womb.... how they prayed many times a day for me.... how they prepared the nursery for me.... all the things they did for me... all the struggles my mom went through in a very difficult pregnancy.... they sang "Jesus songs" to me that I might know Jesus ... and much more.... all before I was born, before I did anything, before I even COULD deserve anything, before I could choose anything.... unconditional love, agape love, pure love. I wanted to hear this because it comforted me, it assured me that all my goofs, all the things I did that disappointed my parents, in all my problems, in my surgeries.... I had love. Nothing would separate me from their love. That's the message of Election. Always proclaimed to the saved, to His children. It is NOT the wrong, pagan, Greek philosophy of Fate applied to justification.... it is NOT to be twisted inside out and upside down into some horrible, horrible concept of hate and terror. My parents loving me before I was born does NOT prove THEREFORE they hate other babies and cause other parents' babies to die. Election gives God the glory for life (without blaming Him for death)..... It embraces His unconditional love (without twisting that into unconditional hate).

- Josiah

*This issue ONLY applies to justification (initial, narrow) and except for a tiny number of Calvinists, does NOT apply elsewhere. Thus, while extreme Calvinists equate this with the Greek philosophy of Fate, most only apply it to this singular aspect (in spite of Reformed Confessions).

.

Josiah · Jan 25, 2019

Josiah said:
There are two very different understandings of Election/Predestination*

Extreme Calvinism: God predestines ALL to either heaven or hell (most to hell). It is His soverign will that most go to hell and some to heaven, and THEREFORE that's what He causes to happen and THEREFORE that's what happens.

Traditional Christianity: The Bible, the Fathers and the Ecumenical Council of Orange all present this as pure Gospel, meant to comfort and assure (and it supports monergism). Before the very foundations of the world, God loved us and chose us as His very own... and nothing can separate us from that love, love which obviously is unconditional and unearned since we were supersaturated with such before we were even born and thus before we did or said or thought or choose anything.

Illustration...

I have two older, living siblings, both were pregnancies and births that went perfectly. But I have two older siblings that resulted in the baby dying, one a few weeks before the "due" date and one full term. Mom had exactly the same problem with me and I had the exact same defect as those two older, died brothers ... the docs said there was a 50/50 chance that I'd live. My parents (even my two siblings) told me (very often.... often at my request) how much they loved me, while I was still in the womb.... how they prayed many times a day for me.... how they prepared the nursery for me.... all the things they did for me... all the struggles my mom went through in a very difficult pregnancy.... they sang "Jesus songs" to me that I might know Jesus ... and much more.... all before I was born, before I did anything, before I even COULD deserve anything, before I could choose anything.... unconditional love, agape love, pure love. I wanted to hear this because it comforted me, it assured me that all my goofs, all the things I did that disappointed my parents, in all my problems, in my surgeries.... I had love. Nothing would separate me from their love. That's the message of Election. Always proclaimed to the saved, to His children. It is NOT the wrong, pagan, Greek philosophy of Fate applied to justification.... it is NOT to be twisted inside out and upside down into some horrible, horrible concept of hate and terror. My parents loving me before I was born does NOT prove THEREFORE they hate other babies and cause other parents' babies to die. Election gives God the glory for life (without blaming Him for death)..... It embraces His unconditional love (without twisting that into unconditional hate).

- Josiah

*This issue ONLY applies to justification (initial, narrow) and except for a tiny number of Calvinists, does NOT apply elsewhere. Thus, while extreme Calvinists equate this with the Greek philosophy of Fate, they only apply it to this singular aspect.

.

One more thing..... Beware of the Calvinist wiggle.

Most Calvinists have realized the unbiblical and horrible dogma of the TULIP concept of Predestination (to their credit). But rather than just admit, "Oh, that was wrong"... some wiggle. "God predestines ALL to their eventually fate - but He only causes those who go to heaven to go there.... He does nothing regarding those that go, um, there." This is absurd.

The word "predestined" (especially in the Greek of the Bible) MEANS to cause, to make happen. It is an ACTIVE word. If God predestines ALL to their appointed final destination, then He causes ALL to go where they end up. Some Calvinists today speak of "positive and negative" or "active and passive" predestination. But the second part is simply an oxymoron. This "spin" a few Calvinists make is the same as, "I caused the sun to rise this morning but actually I didn't will it or do anything whatsoever to make that happen." If the predestination to hell is wrong, then just admit, it's wrong (and return to biblical, historic Christianity).

The problem is with the "ALL" (or as it is commonly known, "DOUBLE predestination"). Reality is, the "U" in TULIP is simply wrong. It's terrible. It's unbiblical. These Calvinists need to return to historic, biblical, orthodox Christianity on this point.... and nearly all have, to their credit.

The Bible teaches that God predestines the saved. THAT'S true. Now, STOP. Just as the Bible does, just as God does, just as historic Christianity does, just as the Council of Orange does. This avoids all this horrible, very unbiblical dogma that nearly all Calvinists correctly have abandoned. Like most of TULIP, it's just wrong.

- Josiah

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MennoSota · Jan 25, 2019

Josiah said:
There are two very different understandings of Election/Predestination*

Extreme Calvinism: God predestines ALL to either heaven or hell (most to hell). It is His soverign will that most go to hell and some to heaven, and THEREFORE that's what He causes to happen and THEREFORE that's what happens.

Traditional Christianity: The Bible, the Fathers and the Ecumenical Council of Orange all present this as pure Gospel, meant to comfort and assure (and it supports monergism). Before the very foundations of the world, God loved us and chose us as His very own... and nothing can separate us from that love, love which obviously is unconditional and unearned since we were supersaturated with such before we were even born and thus before we did or said or thought or choose anything.

Illustration...

I have two older, living siblings, both were pregnancies and births that went perfectly. But I have two older siblings that resulted in the baby dying, one a few weeks before the "due" date and one full term. Mom had exactly the same problem with me and I had the exact same defect as those two older, died brothers ... the docs said there was a 50/50 chance that I'd live. My parents (even my two siblings) told me (very often.... often at my request) how much they loved me, while I was still in the womb.... how they prayed many times a day for me.... how they prepared the nursery for me.... all the things they did for me... all the struggles my mom went through in a very difficult pregnancy.... they sang "Jesus songs" to me that I might know Jesus ... and much more.... all before I was born, before I did anything, before I even COULD deserve anything, before I could choose anything.... unconditional love, agape love, pure love. I wanted to hear this because it comforted me, it assured me that all my goofs, all the things I did that disappointed my parents, in all my problems, in my surgeries.... I had love. Nothing would separate me from their love. That's the message of Election. Always proclaimed to the saved, to His children. It is NOT the wrong, pagan, Greek philosophy of Fate applied to justification.... it is NOT to be twisted inside out and upside down into some horrible, horrible concept of hate and terror. My parents loving me before I was born does NOT prove THEREFORE they hate other babies and cause other parents' babies to die. Election gives God the glory for life (without blaming Him for death)..... It embraces His unconditional love (without twisting that into unconditional hate).

- Josiah

*This issue ONLY applies to justification (initial, narrow) and except for a tiny number of Calvinists, does NOT apply elsewhere. Thus, while extreme Calvinists equate this with the Greek philosophy of Fate, they only apply it to this singular aspect.

.

Dude, are you going to talk about election or just blow smoke out your poop hole?

Address the verses atpollard provided because your bogus pasting is of no value, except to hold up your crutch.

Josiah · Jan 25, 2019

MennoSota said:
Address the verses atpollard provided because your bogus pasting is of no value, except to hold up your crutch.

You've said twice that I'm on your ignore list. Thus, you cannot even see my posts. Hum.....

I have no issues at all with the verses that atpollard posted.

I addressed the issue of the thread. Of course, you ignored what I posted (because you can't even see it, I'm on your ignore list)

.

atpollard · Jan 25, 2019

Josiah said:
There are two very different understandings of Election/Predestination*

Do you mean to imply that ELECTION and PREDESTINATION are the same thing?

“Elect” or “Chosen” is the English translation of a very specific Greek word. That the word and the concept that word represents is in the Bible cannot be denied. “Predestination” is also in the Bible, but it is represented by a very different Greek word. This suggests that “Chosen” and “Predestined” are not necessisarilly synonymous. “Elect” and “Chosen”, while two words in English, were both translated from the same Greek root word, so the Elect are the Chosen.

If you feel that Predestination is linked to ‘eklekos’ (Elect/Chosen), then I welcome your presenting your case. If not, then the attack on Predestination and Calvinism is misplaced in a topic on the Biblical meaning of Election.

Traditional Christianity: The Bible, the Fathers and the Ecumenical Council of Orange all present this as pure Gospel, meant to comfort and assure (and it supports monergism). Before the very foundations of the world, God loved us and chose us as His very own... and nothing can separate us from that love, love which obviously is unconditional and unearned since we were supersaturated with such before we were even born and thus before we did or said or thought or choose anything.

“present this as pure Gospel” ... Present WHAT as pure Gospel (good news)? That we were Chosen and Chosen = unconditionally loved?
I want to be certain that I understand what case you are making.

Who are “we”?
Just you and I?

Those who believe?
Those who persevere?
Every human being?

... Who is “Chosen” and what are they chosen for?

Were they chosen to hear the gospel?
Were they chosen to believe the gospel?
Were they chosen to inherit eternal life (be glorified)?

I have merely presented where the word “Elect/Chosen” is found in scripture.
I still seek the wisdom of the understanding of many counselors on what it means.

Illustration...
I have two older, living siblings, both were pregnancies and births that went perfectly. But I have two older siblings that resulted in the baby dying, one a few weeks before the "due" date and one full term. Mom had exactly the same problem with me and I had the exact same defect as those two older, died brothers ... the docs said there was a 50/50 chance that I'd live. My parents (even my two siblings) told me (very often.... often at my request) how much they loved me, while I was still in the womb.... how they prayed many times a day for me.... how they prepared the nursery for me.... all the things they did for me... all the struggles my mom went through in a very difficult pregnancy.... they sang "Jesus songs" to me that I might know Jesus ... and much more.... all before I was born, before I did anything, before I even COULD deserve anything, before I could choose anything.... unconditional love, agape love, pure love. I wanted to hear this because it comforted me, it assured me that all my goofs, all the things I did that disappointed my parents, in all my problems, in my surgeries.... I had love. Nothing would separate me from their love. That's the message of Election. Always proclaimed to the saved, to His children.

- Josiah.

Thank you for sharing your story. It explains your passion and it is a great illustration of the love of God for His children.

However, I am still left wondering ... who was elected and what exactly were they chosen for?
If God chose to love them, then does God love all and are all the elect?
If God loves His children, then what of those who are not his children? Are they “not chosen”? Are they still “chosen”?
Does being “chosen” by God mean anything at all? If so, then what?

“I was born to a family of religious atheists and taught that the person who dies with the most toys, wins. I lived among evil and survived when few others did. I buried both of my brothers. So when God introduced himself and offered to exchange my imminent death for a new life, I wanted only one thing from God. The TRUTH. God alone has been completely honest with me in life. So that is all that I have ever sought in studying scripture ... to find out what is truth. What does God actually say and what does it really mean.

That is all that I am looking for here.

The TRUTH about this ‘Chosen’ that God mentions in his word.

atpollard · Jan 25, 2019

MennoSota said:
The Old Testament helps us.
We see Adam and Eve being chosen as the first humans.
Able's sacrifice was chosen over Cain's.
The line of Seth chosen over Cain.
Noah chosen to carry on the human race.
Abraham chosen out of Ur.
Jacob chosen over Esau.
Moses chosen to lead Israel.
Judges chosen to lead Israel.
David chosen as King and his offspring chosen to rule forever.
Israel chosen over the other nations.
Prophets chosen by God.
John the Baptist chosen as a voice calling in the wilderness.

From the very beginning, God has exercised His Sovereign authority in election. The New Testament continues God's consistent, authoritative election.

For each of those Old Testament examples (which were very insightful), the TASK they were chosen to perform was usually clearly known in advance
... God told Abram why he was leaving his home and traveling to a distant land.

So what were we Elected/Chosen for?
What is our purpose and task?

MennoSota · Jan 25, 2019

atpollard said:
For each of those Old Testament examples (which were very insightful), the TASK they were chosen to perform was usually clearly known in advance
... God told Abram why he was leaving his home and traveling to a distant land.

So what were we Elected/Chosen for?
What is our purpose and task?

God tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and

gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and

entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.

We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

MennoSota · Jan 26, 2019

MennoSota said:
God tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and

gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and

entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.

We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

By the way, this passage also expresses election and limited atonement when it states:
"For OUR sake he made him to be sin, so that IN HIM...WE...might become the righteousness of God."
Paul does not say "for the world's sake"..."so that the world might become the righteousness of God." No, Paul says "our" (the elect) sake..."we...become the righteousness of God."
The consistency of scripture is obvious, yet as humans we still naturally rebel against what God teaches. We want to be the determiners of our fate...apart from God's hand doing all the work to save us. We want to be able to pat ourselves on the back and boast. (sigh)

TurtleHare · Jan 26, 2019

MennoSota said:
By the way, this passage also expresses election and limited atonement when it states:
"For OUR sake he made him to be sin, so that IN HIM...WE...might become the righteousness of God."
Paul does not say "for the world's sake"..."so that the world might become the righteousness of God." No, Paul says "our" (the elect) sake..."we...become the righteousness of God."
The consistency of scripture is obvious, yet as humans we still naturally rebel against what God teaches. We want to be the determiners of our fate...apart from God's hand doing all the work to save us. We want to be able to pat ourselves on the back and boast. (sigh)

Apart from hearing the Gospel in order to believe have they attained the righteousness then, course not, it's not just boom there it is put upon them cuz God has chosen a method of getting the elect to believe. But hey, btw, Jesus did die for all and I just showed ya how not all will receive what happened at that there cross because of what needed to happen next.

MennoSota · Jan 26, 2019

TurtleHare said:
Apart from hearing the Gospel in order to believe have they attained the righteousness then, course not, it's not just boom there it is put upon them cuz God has chosen a method of getting the elect to believe. But hey, btw, Jesus did die for all and I just showed ya how not all will receive what happened at that there cross because of what needed to happen next.

Exactly how did you show me?
God uses many means to make the elect alive in Christ. God gives the elect the faith to believe.
What you have done here is make an assertion with nothing to back it (Jesus did die for all).
Moreso, this topic is election so you're not even on topic.

atpollard · Jan 26, 2019

Since the general consensus is that EVERY topic needs to be an argument about Calvinism, and I have no desire to participate in that particular game ...

... I leave you all to it.
I’ll be back in a few months to see if anything changes.
In the mean time, enjoy.

Josiah · Jan 27, 2019

atpollard said:
Since the general consensus is that EVERY topic needs to be an argument about Calvinism.

[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]

... a little touchy there, my friend?

Threads about radical Calvinism are almost exclusively started and pushed by one poster here: a Calvinist.
There is no "anti-Calvinist" war here (many sites DO have a radical Calvinist vs. radical Arminianist war but not here).
Some of us (me included) have often said very positive things about Calvinism and Calvinists.
We are PLEASED to have Calvinists here (I think I'm the one that invited you?)

But.... no..... no one is given a "pass" on truth. If one starts a thread in this forum, it IS considered accountable - even if the position is taken from TULIP.

If you don't like a thread, my advice to you and to all is the same: Don't participate in it. There are hundreds of other threads available.

Blessings!

- Josiah

.

atpollard · Jan 27, 2019

Josiah said:
[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]

... a little touchy there, my friend?

Threads about radical Calvinism are almost exclusively started and pushed by one poster here: a Calvinist.
There is no "anti-Calvinist" war here (many sites DO have a radical Calvinist vs. radical Arminianist war but not here).
Some of us (me included) have often said very positive things about Calvinism and Calvinists.
We are PLEASED to have Calvinists here (I think I'm the one that invited you?)

But.... no..... no one is given a "pass" on truth. If one starts a thread in this forum, it IS considered accountable - even if the position is taken from TULIP.

If you don't like a thread, my advice to you and to all is the same: Don't participate in it. There are hundreds of other threads available.

Blessings!

- Josiah
.

Many months ago, I was active daily on a handful of ‘Christian’ sites. Discussing, debating and defending Scripture and my beliefs. It was exhausting and spiritually unhealthy, fostering a bunker mentality that was not edifying. I only returned to two of those sites very recently because a friend reached out to see how I was and tell me that I was missed.

I returned here to find all the same old players posting virtually unchanged, the same old arguments that boiled down to a correction of the HYPERCALVINIST view of Predestination that has never been held by any significant denomination and has only ever been held by a handful of small radical churches (about as many churches as practice handling poisonous snakes). I really don’t want to invest a lot of time retreading that ground ... everything has already been said.

So I attempted to do EXACTLY what you have just suggested, to avoid topic that I dislike and find a topic that I like. Except all the topics seem to be about bickering. So I created a topic to discuss something as basic of a concept as “elect/chosen” from the perspective of “How does Scripture define it?”

Almost immediately, you felt the need to attack Radical Calvinism (which has nothing to do with how scripture defines the chosen) and MennoSota feels compelled to defend non-radical Calvinism and TurtleHare jumps in to resurrect another old off topic argument.

I am not “touchy”.
I am simply tired of the crap and disappointed.
Since EVERY topic is about arguing Calvinism, I planned on briefly participating in the only HONEST topic that states that it for arguing about Calvinism.
Soon, I will grow bored with that and return to non-Christian sites for at least neutral activity rather than “biting and devouring”.

Did you know that Tesla is recycling old electric car batteries to build solar powered charging stations that can fast charge electric vehicles for 7 cents per KW-hour and operate 100% off the power grid? Something I read up on while I was not arguing with Christians over the last few months.

MennoSota · Jan 27, 2019

atpollard said:
Many months ago, I was active daily on a handful of ‘Christian’ sites. Discussing, debating and defending Scripture and my beliefs. It was exhausting and spiritually unhealthy, fostering a bunker mentality that was not edifying. I only returned to two of those sites very recently because a friend reached out to see how I was and tell me that I was missed.

I returned here to find all the same old players posting virtually unchanged, the same old arguments that boiled down to a correction of the HYPERCALVINIST view of Predestination that has never been held by any significant denomination and has only ever been held by a handful of small radical churches (about as many churches as practice handling poisonous snakes). I really don’t want to invest a lot of time retreading that ground ... everything has already been said.

So I attempted to do EXACTLY what you have just suggested, to avoid topic that I dislike and find a topic that I like. Except all the topics seem to be about bickering. So I created a topic to discuss something as basic of a concept as “elect/chosen” from the perspective of “How does Scripture define it?”

Almost immediately, you felt the need to attack Radical Calvinism (which has nothing to do with how scripture defines the chosen) and MennoSota feels compelled to defend non-radical Calvinism and TurtleHare jumps in to resurrect another old off topic argument.

I am not “touchy”.
I am simply tired of the crap and disappointed.
Since EVERY topic is about arguing Calvinism, I planned on briefly participating in the only HONEST topic that states that it for arguing about Calvinism.
Soon, I will grow bored with that and return to non-Christian sites for at least neutral activity rather than “biting and devouring”.

Did you know that Tesla is recycling old electric car batteries to build solar powered charging stations that can fast charge electric vehicles for 7 cents per KW-hour and operate 100% off the power grid? Something I read up on while I was not arguing with Christians over the last few months.

...and all the internationals just saw the word "crap" and the poop has hit the fan at the CH. [emoji23][emoji1787][emoji90]

Understanding Election

atpollard

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MennoSota

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Josiah

simul justus et peccator

Josiah

simul justus et peccator

MennoSota

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Josiah

simul justus et peccator

atpollard

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atpollard

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MennoSota

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MennoSota

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TurtleHare

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MennoSota

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atpollard

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Josiah

simul justus et peccator

atpollard

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MennoSota

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