Save yourselves?

Arsenios · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
I counted 10 different versions that say "Be saved". So yes, it is a passive tense that is used otherwise none of those would even try to state it.

It is a passive imperative...

"Be you saved from..."

And it tells you what to DO to BE Saved BY God...

Arsenios

Lamb · Jan 30, 2019

Arsenios said:
It is a passive imperative...

"Be you saved from..."

And it tells you what to DO to BE Saved BY God...

Arsenios

And God initiates it always. Which is why it's passive tense.

Josiah · Jan 30, 2019

Arsenios said:
And it tells you what to DO to BE Saved BY God.

An oxymoron.

Lamb · Jan 30, 2019

A King grants a pardon to all the prisoners as a free gift. They are in essence "free" now but they don't know it until someone tells them they are free. What do they need to do to free themselves? The King has already freed them. Walking out of the jail did not free them. The King's pardon already did that. It gets them out of the prison, yes, but they were free to do so already.

MennoSota · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
A King grants a pardon to all the prisoners as a free gift. They are in essence "free" now but they don't know it until someone tells them they are free. What do they need to do to free themselves? The King has already freed them. Walking out of the jail did not free them. The King's pardon already did that. It gets them out of the prison, yes, but they were free to do so already.

Do they go to hell because of their ignorance, despite God declaring them pardoned?
Is God that passive?

Lamb · Jan 30, 2019

MennoSota said:
Do they go to hell because of their ignorance, despite God declaring them pardoned?
Is God that passive?

Ignorance has no faith. Calvinists even believe that faith needs to be given by God or they cannot have eternal life with Him. Without faith the pardon is not given to them at their deaths. So they go to hell not receiving what Jesus earned.

MennoSota · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Ignorance has no faith. Calvinists even believe that faith needs to be given by God or they cannot have eternal life with Him. Without faith the pardon is not given to them at their deaths. So they go to hell not receiving what Jesus earned.

But we believe only the elect are made righteous and holy by the sacrifice of Christ. You have declared all to be righteous. The Bible says "There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." It also says "But God made us alive in Christ." The being made alive in Christ comes before the giving of faith. (See Ephesians 2:5-9)
So since I believe that only the elect receive the atonement (being made perfect) it also stands that only the elect receive faith.
Your view condemns people for being ignorant about being perfect by Jesus atonement. Or, you make Jesus good and perfect atonement null and void to all whom God has refused to grant faith. They die faithless, but perfectly holy and righteous before God because Jesus made them perfect and righteous.
Which is it?

Arsenios · Jan 30, 2019

Josiah said:
An oxymoron.

Welcome to the passive imperative of the Greek...

I agree, yet it is used...

So the question is not how to deny it meaning, but what meaning to affirm...

How can you command a person to have something done to him?

We tell people to get a haircut...

We do not tell them to be haircutter...

Which is why so many translations say: "Save yourselves..."

"Be saved from this evil generation..." is correct, and it is commanded...

So what does a person do who is given this command?

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
And God initiates it always. Which is why it's passive tense.

Yes -

God Calls you to repentance...
Therein is the Grace to repent - At least enough to begin...
And then you begin repenting...
Or not...
Or start and then stop...
Or don't and then do...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jan 30, 2019

Lämmchen said:
A King grants a pardon to all the prisoners as a free gift. They are in essence "free" now but they don't know it until someone tells them they are free. What do they need to do to free themselves? The King has already freed them. Walking out of the jail did not free them. The King's pardon already did that. It gets them out of the prison, yes, but they were free to do so already.

Is there a passage that tells us that the Gift is Free?

I have managed, in my old age, to remember that we are to Count the COST of Discipleship...

Arsenios

MennoSota · Jan 31, 2019

Arsenios said:
Yes -

God Calls you to repentance...
Therein is the Grace to repent - At least enough to begin...
And then you begin repenting...
Or not...
Or start and then stop...
Or don't and then do...

Arsenios

Works salvation. Grace is a merit based payment. Judaiser...
Sad.

MennoSota · Jan 31, 2019

Arsenios said:
Is there a passage that tells us that the Gift is Free?

I have managed, in my old age, to remember that we are to Count the COST of Discipleship...

Arsenios

Romans 5:15-17
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Lamb · Jan 31, 2019

MennoSota said:
But we believe only the elect are made righteous and holy by the sacrifice of Christ. You have declared all to be righteous. The Bible says "There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." It also says "But God made us alive in Christ." The being made alive in Christ comes before the giving of faith. (See Ephesians 2:5-9)
So since I believe that only the elect receive the atonement (being made perfect) it also stands that only the elect receive faith.
Your view condemns people for being ignorant about being perfect by Jesus atonement. Or, you make Jesus good and perfect atonement null and void to all whom God has refused to grant faith. They die faithless, but perfectly holy and righteous before God because Jesus made them perfect and righteous.
Which is it?

Keep reading the rest of that section of Ephesians. It talks of by grace through faith Ephesians 2:8. If you're going to not read the entire section then you'll get a false sense of what it is saying.

Lamb · Jan 31, 2019

Arsenios said:
Is there a passage that tells us that the Gift is Free?

I have managed, in my old age, to remember that we are to Count the COST of Discipleship...

Arsenios

The gift of salvation is free.

The gift of repentance is by grace. That means it is freely given by God by His grace.

The gift of faith is by grace. Again, freely given by God by His grace for our salvation.

We don't work for our salvation. That's how it is free to us.

MennoSota · Jan 31, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Keep reading the rest of that section of Ephesians. It talks of by grace through faith Ephesians 2:8. If you're going to not read the entire section then you'll get a false sense of what it is saying.

God makes people alive in Christ by his gracious choice. He gives those people faith to believe that God saved, not themselves doing the saving, so that no person can boast.
The entire passage is about God's full Sovereignty in saving you.

Lamb · Jan 31, 2019

MennoSota said:
God makes people alive in Christ by his gracious choice. He gives those people faith to believe that God saved, not themselves doing the saving, so that no person can boast.
The entire passage is about God's full Sovereignty in saving you.

I agree with you.

What I disagreed with is that even though objectively Jesus died to free us, it isn't given to us personally until God appropriates it to us by faith. That's the subjective part.

MennoSota · Jan 31, 2019

Lämmchen said:
The gift of salvation is free.

The gift of repentance is by grace. That means it is freely given by God by His grace.

The gift of faith is by grace. Again, freely given by God by His grace for our salvation.

We don't work for our salvation. That's how it is free to us.

The gift of adoption (salvation) is by grace. The gift of faith is by grace. Repentance is the effect that is caused by God adopting us and giving us faith.
No person repents apart from first being made alive in Christ and adopted into God's family because no one seeks God, not even one.
We work...out...our salvation. This means we go through the process of being sanctified so that our salvation might result in our being made in the likeness of Christ.
When we exercise in the gym, we work out to build our muscle strength. So we work out our salvation with the idea of being made in the likeness of Christ (sanctified). We want to be made in the image of Christ. We have a job to do

MennoSota · Jan 31, 2019

Lämmchen said:
I agree with you.

What I disagreed with is that even though objectively Jesus died to free us, it isn't given to us personally until God appropriates it to us by faith. That's the subjective part.

Do you not trust Jesus when he tells us that he will never leave us nor forsake us? Do you not trust that Jesus will keep all those whom the Father has given him?
It seems odd that you would rightly state that God must do the work of saving, without us exercising a free will, yet you turn around and say that we, by free will, can utterly reject being an adopted child of the king.
If God adopts us, does God un-adopt us when we doubt and use our inheritance to pleasure ourselves? Does God not call us his sons and daughters? Does the story of the prodigal son mean nothing?

Lamb · Jan 31, 2019

There seems to be, once again, confusion over what's Law and what's Gospel and the paradox of them. Both are true...God's law and God's gospel. That's why Lutherans proclaim both. But they have to be viewed in light of the situation. The Law accuses and brings terror and the Gospel forgives and brings comfort. That's why in 1 Corinthians 10:12 there is a warning about falling (as well as other verses I've stated in one of these threads) because we still sin and those sins come with dire warnings. But does that mean the Gospel is not true? For the man who sinned and is in despair over it, the Gospel is given to him to bring peace and joy.

MoreCoffee · Jan 31, 2019

Lämmchen said:
I counted 10 different versions that say "Be saved". So yes, it is a passive tense that is used otherwise none of those would even try to state it.

Which versions say "be saved" instead of "save yourselves". You mention ten, which are these ten?

Save yourselves?

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