If Calvinism is not right, how come some people can't muster up faith?

Lucian Hodoboc said:

If the Calvinistic view that some people are predestined to damnation is false, then how come some people can't muster up enough faith in the form of a feeling no matter how much they pray? Or is faith something other than a feeling?

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I don't understand your question....

I agree with what John Calvin wrote regarding Salvation in answer to your question ... especially this "But like as those which call upon the name of the Lord are sure of salvation, so we must think that, without the same, we are thrice miserable and undone"

but here is the full quote.

"Therefore, forasmuch as no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief. I speak of all unto whom God doth make himself manifest by the gospel. But like as those which call upon the name of the Lord are sure of salvation, so we must think that, without the same, we are thrice miserable and undone. And when as our salvation is placed in calling upon God, there is nothing in the mean season taken from faith, forasmuch as this invocation is grounded on faith alone."

Lämmchen said:

I think he's asking...if faith doesn't come from God but from something within man, how come some men don't ultimately come to having faith?

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I got that he is somewhat defending Calvinism, saying if you don't believe in it how can you know if you believe/have faith/are saved(?), maybe it's just worded wrong.

He's Eastern Orthodox.... they are "ZERO point Calvinists" (LOL)

Lämmchen said:

I think he's asking...if faith doesn't come from God but from something within man, how come some men don't ultimately come to having faith?

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That'd be because doubt, unbelief, and faith are all human things. I can doubt you're claims, refuse to believe them, or believe them. I will have reasons for any and all of those reactions some will be emotional some will be rational it is the same with matters of religion. Don't forget that Jehovah's witnesses, Latter Day Saints, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus all have faith in varying degrees and towards varying gods.

Josiah said:

He's Eastern Orthodox.... they are "ZERO point Calvinists" (LOL)

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He also said he is a little bit of a heretic

Something to do with Protestant groups.

He may be a budding Lutheran

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Faith in the form of a feeling, that is. There are people who will engage in religious activities and strive to live according to the teachings of Christianity (attend church, go to confession, read The Bible, do charitable work, even pray), but constantly doubt (in their minds) their beliefs about the existence of God, The Trinity, Jesus etc.

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In the context of Justification (narrow, initial), "FAITH" = to apprehend, embrace, trust, rely. If I board an airplane, I have faith in it - I'm trusting, relying upon it. Is that a "feeling?" Not specifically, although I agree their often is a sense of confidence and peace associated with it. Faith, in this context, is not a function of emotions or of the brain. Can a newborn baby trust his mother? Sure. Does he have any cognative, intellectual information that causes such? Probably not. Does he FEEL anything as he welcomes Mom picking him up? Maybe... maybe not.


James Dopson once worte a very popular Christian book entitled, "Feelings - Can You Depend on Them". I'll save your the $20.00 for the book, the answer he gives is NO. Satan and our own "stuff" can cause all times of issues with how we FEEL. But we are not saved by how we FEEL, we are saved by something objective and OUTSIDE ourselves: Jesus Christ. In justification, we are NEVER directed to our feelings but to the Cross and Empty Tomb. It is Satan I hold, who tries HARD to get us to look away from the Cross and into the mirror.

And faith is NOT to be confused with knowledge. It is not a function of the brain, it is "the gift of God." In the Bible we find the prayer, "Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief." EVERYONE has doubts, questions, etc. This can be good, it can lead us to humility. But Satan and our own egoism wants God to submit to OUR opinions, speculations, and yes doubts and questions. EVERYONE has doubts and periods when those doubts annoy. Tell 'em where to go.



I hope that helps.



- Josiah




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It is good to be cautious about following feelings. Most actions are motivated by feelings. But most actions are safe and good only when the feelings happen to be towards something reasonable and good. Faith is not a feeling. Faith can, and often does, evoke strong emotions but faith is not itself a feeling.

Lämmchen said:

Doubt actually shows a sign of faith. It's rejection that's the problem

Edited to add...look at Thomas who doubted. He was not condemned as an unbeliever. He just needed to get more proof to increase his faith.

The disciples doubted the women who had been at the tomb where Jesus was no longer laid. Doubt doesn't make us instant unbelievers. It's usually a good way for us to look further to learn the truth guided by the Holy Spirit.

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Amen. This^^^

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"
John 20:29

MoreCoffee said:

It is good to be cautious about following feelings. Most actions are motivated by feelings. But most actions are safe and good only when the feelings happen to be towards something reasonable and good. Faith is not a feeling. Faith can, and often does, evoke strong emotions but faith is not itself a feeling.

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.... what he said.




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Josiah said:

.... what he said.
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Well, if faith is not a feeling of belief, what is it?

You are not saying it is a work now are you Josiah??

Or is it mere abstract intellectual assent without any feeling?

I mean, the EOC considers faith to be THE Faith OF Christ which He discipled to His Apostles...

And THAT Faith comes through works in order to live in us...

It is our response of obedience to the Call of the Gospel to repent and be Baptized into Christ...

And as the Parable of the Sower illumines, that Call is received variously according to our human condition when it comes...

So that for the rich man, the Way is harder than for the poor... He has to DO more...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Well, if faith is not a feeling of belief, what is it?

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Reliance.

See post 12

You are not saying it is a work now are you Josiah??

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OF COURSE it is a work, the question is: WHOSE? Does self give faith to self (thus self saving self) or is it as the Bible repeatedly verbatim states, the free gift of God? Or to put it another way, when you profess in the Creed, that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life, are you lying because actually self is? If He gives, then He's not rewording. If we perform an adequate good work and the Holy Spirit simply in an act of appropriate justice acts accordingly then by definition He is not giving anything but rewording. So, is the Creed correct or lying?

arsenios said:

Or is it mere abstract intellectual assent without any feeling?

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In justification, it is not "intellectual assent" it is apprehending/embracing/trusting/relying. My son trusted his mother LONG before he had any intellectual comprehension as to why that was a good idea. At my baptism, God gave me life (and with it faith) but I'm still working on the "intellectual assent" (well, actually, I gave up on that many years ago).

arsenios said:

I mean, the EOC considers faith to be THE Faith OF Christ which He discipled to His Apostles...

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The word CAN mean "the corpus of embraced teachings," that's just not the context of justification. This thread is about justification (the coming of the Holy Spirit, spiritual life, faith), ".... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life." It's not wise to use a definition that applies to a completely different context.

arseni0os said:

It is our response of obedience to the Call of the Gospel to repent and be Baptized into Christ...

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Well, we strongly disagree on that, don't we?

I hold that Jesus is the Savior (not self) and that the Holy Spirit gives life/faith (not self). I believe we are justified by grace, not by our obedience.

We quite fundamentally disagree, as is evident by our many previous discussions on this.




See http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6533-What-is-God-s-role-in-salvation




- Josiah




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Josiah said:

[Faith is] Reliance.

OF COURSE it [faith] is a work, the question is: WHOSE?

Does self give faith to self (thus self saving self) [?]

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Scripture quotes Christ saying this:

IF ANY(one) is WILLING...
After Me to be coming...
Let him FIRST deny himself [REPENT]...
THEN take up his cross...
AND Follow Me...

Notice it does not say:
"IF anyone is GIVEN FAITH by Me,
then he WILL deny himself
and take up his cross
and follow me..."

or is it as the Bible repeatedly verbatim states, the free gift of God?

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The Bible never says that...

It clearly states that Salvation is the Gift, not your personal faith...

And it clearly states that we are Saved THROUGH [the works of] THE Faith [of Christ]...

And it clearly states that we are Saved BY [God's] Grace...

Which clearly states that when we first embrace the Faith of Christ
which He discipled to His Apostles,
we THEN are Saved BY God's Grace...

That is WHY Christ commanded his Apostles to DISCIPLE all the Nations...
To disciple them in the Faith in which Christ discipled them...
To carefully observe ALL the COMMANDMENTS which Christ Commanded them to DO...
The Faith of Christ is a Labor undertaken by the disciples...
The Faith is discipled...
AS you ARE discipled in obedience, your Faith will GROW...
Works perfect the Faith of Christ IN US, as James observes...

So to the OP - The REASON some do NOT acquire the Faith of Christ is because they either are NOT discipled in it, OR they are not obedient to the discipling they are given... Man is totally responsible for the Salvation he is GIVEN, and man has NO Salvation to GIVE to himself...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Scripture quotes Christ saying this:

IF ANY(one) is WILLING...
After Me to be coming...
Let him FIRST deny himself [REPENT]...
THEN take up his cross...
AND Follow Me...


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1. You are misquoting him.

2. You just deleted the part of the verse where it says, "Jesus said to his disciples...." A "disciple" of Jesus is NOT one VOID of faith, of spiritual life, of the Holy Spirit, void of justification. This is not about justification but sanctification.... He did not say this to dead, atheistic, enemies of God void of God and the Holy Spirit... He did not say this as how one saves self (and thus Jesus had no need to come, no need to suffer, no need to die, no need to rise), He spoke to those already His DISCIPLES.


Yes. I know. We very strongly disagree on justification: I hold that Jesus is the Savior and thus does the saving; I hold that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and not simply by adequately obeying the law and successfully jumping through a bunch of hoops. I know, we very much disagree. You've been stressing that since you came here.



Now, back to the subject of the thread...




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