What is God's role in salvation?

Andrew

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Since it means "returning" we have to assume then that could only be returning to God.
Amen. In Christ we "turn inward" in our new hearts... I remember coming across this in my studies a few years back.
 

Arsenios

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In the Jewish tradition, repentance is called teshuvah, a Hebrew word translated as “returning.”

An important feature of repentance in connection with God...

The Greek is more spiritually descriptive - metanoia means change-nous... The problem today in the West is that we do not have a co-equivalent term - Orthodox writers have had to simply transliterate the term "nous" to designate the meaning of this term... Mind is too broadly inclusive, and intellect really does not capture it either... Awareness is too broadly vague, and consciousness too artsy fartsy... The meaning of nous is the most fundamental feature of the mind, beneath concepts, beneath images, beneath words, beneath sensations... It is a two headed feature of the human spirit, for by it we can apprehend God, and by it we direct our attention to the world... It is called the Eye of the Heart, and is the source of both single mindedness and double mindedness...

The Fall of Adam scattered the nous of man from God to creation, because Adam ate of the created Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, deceived by the Serpent and thinking that he could become as God by partaking of the forbidden fruit of creation... In this Adam turned from God and re-directed his nous away from God to all creation, for he ATE of the Fruit... And now in Christ we EAT and DRINK Christ... So that the RETURN in the Jewish word means returning to God and obedience to God, and their repentance was marked by prayer, fasting, sack-cloth and ashes... And this because in following their own ways, they had forsaken the ways of God, and when warned, as by Jonah, they turned back toward God by the forsaking of their own way...

And this is what Christ called all men to do when He said: "If anyone is willing, after me to be following, let him first DENY HIMSELF..."
REPENTANCE is the DENIAL of SELF... And the Circumcision knew the God from Whom they had turned away, and knew repentance, enforced by captivity... For them, repentance meant severe self denial and self-imposed discomforts... It still does, even for Christians... It is quite refreshing to see you all so eagerly embracing this Jewish doctrine of repentance, understood as "returning"...

But donning sackcloth and eating ashes and starving yourself are all actions taken against the self, and are not actions done for God... With the scattered nous, one needs to re-gather the nous from all its worldly pre-occupations, in order that having re-collected the nous, one can then OFFER it to God, and that offering is not repentance unto God, but surrender to God... The giving back of what had been taken from God... Man has scattered his mind into creation and forgotten God, and lost his mind in the process... This is death to the soul, for it has cut itself off from the Source of Life, and cannot live long in this manner of borrowed life...

The demons all know already that they live on borrowed Life, and are eager to feed off whatever life they can find... They are parasitic that way - Their power is had only through us who consent to their worldly misdirecting of us... They are always on the hunt for power by deception over man... And they conceal themselves in this enterprise...

So yes, "returning" is accurate enough, but the Greek more descriptive of what is actually happening in repentance FROM sin, self and the world...

This is the meaning of "turning inward", Andrew...

"Create in me a clean heart, O Lord, and renew a right Spirit within me..." Psalm 50


Arsenios
 

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Arsenios, you agree that returning is accurate. You even quote Create in me a clean heart oh God which is proof that repentance, the returning, is toward God.
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios, you agree that returning is accurate.

Indeed it is, but only if properly understood...

In fact, it can even be said that repentance is given by God, but only if properly understood...

Such ways of expressing in fallen human language the meaning of metanoia are summaries of various kinds of events that themselves are not monolithic... Instead they are an interaction, where God Calls, and man responds to that Holy Call according to his current state of being, plus according to his very personal decision to respond... The Parable of the Sower shows the wide range of features that enter into one's human response to God's Call... And it is according to that human response that God responds in turn, and back and forth... All of which is foreknown by God, and is experienced by man as ongoing in present time - Unless, of course, God extends, in His Grace and Lovingkindness, an experience of Life Eternal, where ordinary humanly fallen experience of time, is superceded by God's Grace... This can even happen in the Call of God... Nothing can be predicted...

What man does know, or will come to find out, by hook or by crook, is that when he does one kind of thing, he gets one series of events coming into his life, and when he does a different kind, a very different one ensues... That one's actions have consequences... Act wrong and judgement will come, and the Greek word for Judgement is KRISIS - Crisis in English transliteration... Pronounced cree-sis(as in sister)... Simply God getting your attention as you go your own way - Though some, like me, regard it as a sound drubbing with a monster gnarly club... :)

You even quote "Create in me a clean heart O God"
which is proof that repentance, the returning, is toward God.

It is a prayer to God, because although we repent from our sins, it is God Who removes our lawlessness [iniquity] from us...

You see, it is we who refuse to act on evil impulses, but it is God Who removes the impulse from us...

So you can see the sequencing of events in this small periscope from the Psalms:
1st - Repentance from doing sins by man...
2nd - Cleansing of the heart by God...
3rd - Calling on God to renew that now cleansed heart...
4th - The Renewing a Right Spirit in man by God...

This is the classic meaning of Synergy in Holy Tradition...


Arsenios
 

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Arsenios, I notice you have a habit of agreeing on things when I or others make statements about God working in us... and then somehow taking them back so that it points back to YOU instead. Do you notice you do that?
 

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Arsenios, I notice you have a habit of agreeing on things when I or others make statements about God working in us... and then somehow taking them back so that it points back to YOU instead. Do you notice you do that?

The issue of what Salvation is has been shut down, so that when we say the same words, we mean very different things...
So I will agree with something you say, and then show you how I understand its meaning...
I am but giving you the Orthodox understanding as lived consistently in the Orthodox Faith for 2000 years now...

For instance, Salvation is a Gift, as we both agree...
So I agree with Menno it is a Gift...
Yet for Menno, it is a free gift given irrespective of anything we do...
Yet the Church has always understood it being a Gift means that it is God's Giving of Himself which nothing created can earn...
Man cannot possibly earn God... God is not wages...
Yet God is a jealous God, and requires fidelity in His Union with man, and brooks no adultery...
His Call tests our willingness to be faithful to Him...

The Parable of the 10 Virgins is not one of who had the most allotted free gifts from God...
It was about who purchased and preserved their oil...
The Holy Spirit is purchased, you see, in the giving of alms...
"Go, sell all you have. Give it to the poor... And you will have great treasure in heaven...
Then come, and follow Me..."

Remember? The giving of alms is a repentant deed...

It places another's need ahead of your own...

Unless you are Bill Gates and only give out of surplus...


Arsenios
 

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The issue of what Salvation is has been shut down, so that when we say the same words, we mean very different things...
So I will agree with something you say, and then show you how I understand its meaning...
I am but giving you the Orthodox understanding as lived consistently in the Orthodox Faith for 2000 years now...

For instance, Salvation is a Gift, as we both agree...
So I agree with Menno it is a Gift...
Yet for Menno, it is a free gift given irrespective of anything we do...
Yet the Church has always understood it being a Gift means that it is God's Giving of Himself which nothing created can earn...
Man cannot possibly earn God... God is not wages...
Yet God is a jealous God, and requires fidelity in His Union with man, and brooks no adultery...
His Call tests our willingness to be faithful to Him...

The Parable of the 10 Virgins is not one of who had the most allotted free gifts from God...
It was about who purchased and preserved their oil...
The Holy Spirit is purchased, you see, in the giving of alms...
"Go, sell all you have. Give it to the poor... And you will have great treasure in heaven...
Then come, and follow Me..."

Remember? The giving of alms is a repentant deed...

It places another's need ahead of your own...

Unless you are Bill Gates and only give out of surplus...


Arsenios

You agree that free gifts are not earned. You also state that you have been given the Orthodox answers but my friend George who is Orthodox doesn't always agree with how you're answering because your answers become too works righteousness...meaning the gift is not free to you if you have to earn it.
 

Arsenios

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You agree that free gifts are not earned.

I agree that the Gift of God is God Himself, and that nothing created can EVER earn God...

God did not set up His Ekonomia of Salvation on earth for man to EARN God, but to WIN Him...

And in the process for Him to WIN you...

This is perhaps the deepest Mystery of God's Salvation for man...

It is the Marriage of the Lamb with man...

Logic chopping with "A Gift isn't a Gift unless it is Free" is insisting on playing with tinker toys in the shallow end of the pool...

If you want to stay there, you certainly can...

But please read here:

Eph 5:19-33
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


So you can see here the principles of the discipling of the faithful unto union with God, dressed in the wrappings of the Marriage of husband and wife...
Indeed what to do to attain unto that perfecting in the Faith that Christ discipled to His Apostles... You can see the Christian's relationship with Christ as that of the Wife to her Husband...

You also state that you have been given the Orthodox answers but my friend George who is Orthodox doesn't always agree with how you're answering because your answers become too works righteousness...meaning the gift is not free to you if you have to earn it.

I would prefer to let George speak for himself in these matters...

The Gift is not earned - It is won...

No amount of human labors can EARN God - Ever...

You have to WANT it enough to SACRIFICE yourself to WIN it...

Mat 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man hath found, he hideth,
and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath,
and buyeth that field.


IF you do not GO and SELL ALL that you have
You cannot buy the field with the treasure...

So does human Salvation require you to GO and to SELL ALL???

The answer is yes - Discipleship in Christ sacrifices ALL that you have...

Does this somehow EARN you the TREASURE you FOUND???

I wot not!


Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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So Lammchen, your avatar indicates that you are 52 years old, female, and married...

So I ask you, because we are discussing the Marriage of the Lamb, about marriage...

Is Marriage a work or a free gift?

Is it monergistic or synergistic?

All gift by one, no gift by the other?


Arsenios
 

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So Lammchen, your avatar indicates that you are 52 years old, female, and married...

So I ask you, because we are discussing the Marriage of the Lamb, about marriage...

Is Marriage a work or a free gift?

Is it monergistic or synergistic?

All gift by one, no gift by the other?


Arsenios

Marriage, when discussing Jesus, the Church and God we have to look into the Hebrew roots to understand what it was about! The fathers negotiated the match and it was custom for the father of the groom to select the bride! The covenant was made between the fathers and asking the daughter to consent was only a formality since the contract was already put into place. There was a price paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride.

Shall I continue?
 

MennoSota

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The issue of what Salvation is has been shut down, so that when we say the same words, we mean very different things...
So I will agree with something you say, and then show you how I understand its meaning...
I am but giving you the Orthodox understanding as lived consistently in the Orthodox Faith for 2000 years now...

For instance, Salvation is a Gift, as we both agree...
So I agree with Menno it is a Gift...
Yet for Menno, it is a free gift given irrespective of anything we do...
Yet the Church has always understood it being a Gift means that it is God's Giving of Himself which nothing created can earn...
Man cannot possibly earn God... God is not wages...
Yet God is a jealous God, and requires fidelity in His Union with man, and brooks no adultery...
His Call tests our willingness to be faithful to Him...

The Parable of the 10 Virgins is not one of who had the most allotted free gifts from God...
It was about who purchased and preserved their oil...
The Holy Spirit is purchased, you see, in the giving of alms...
"Go, sell all you have. Give it to the poor... And you will have great treasure in heaven...
Then come, and follow Me..."

Remember? The giving of alms is a repentant deed...

It places another's need ahead of your own...

Unless you are Bill Gates and only give out of surplus...


Arsenios
It has to hurt to be wrong for 2000 years...
 

Arsenios

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Marriage, when discussing Jesus, the Church and God we have to look into the Hebrew roots to understand what it was about!

I prefer to look to the New Testament...

The fathers negotiated the match and it was custom for the father of the groom to select the bride! The covenant was made between the fathers and asking the daughter to consent was only a formality since the contract was already put into place. There was a price paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride.

So you are going to look to the customs of the Hebrews with divorce in the offing?

Shall I continue?

Only if you want divorce from Christ...


Arsenios
 

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Arsenios

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Sure they do. They add huge weights around people's necks using speculative traditions and myths.

No we don't... :)

Be careful of those three accusatory fingers of yours pointing straight back at your heart...

Did you know that demon means accuser?

Did we not already have this conversation?

Better duck quick!

!!!Quack!!!

Too late...

Fell for the anonymity trap I betcha!

Nobody knows who I really am or my home address and phone number...

So I can accuse others to my heart's content, right?

And no consequences, right?

Like birth control and abortion...

All the pleasure and no consequences...

And you are one of the oh so elect!

So you are already saved, so you can do whatever you want, right?

You can spit venom and no consequences...

Lord have mercy on you, Menno...

I thought we were past this vomit...

Did you forget to count the cost of discipleship?

Do you even know what it is?

Do you even care?

I sure hope so...


Arsenios
 

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No we don't... :)

Be careful of those three accusatory fingers of yours pointing straight back at your heart...

Did you know that demon means accuser?

Did we not already have this conversation?

Better duck quick!

!!!Quack!!!

Too late...

Fell for the anonymity trap I betcha!

Nobody knows who I really am or my home address and phone number...

So I can accuse others to my heart's content, right?

And no consequences, right?

Like birth control and abortion...

All the pleasure and no consequences...

And you are one of the oh so elect!

So you are already saved, so you can do whatever you want, right?

You can spit venom and no consequences...

Lord have mercy on you, Menno...

I thought we were past this vomit...

Did you forget to count the cost of discipleship?

Do you even know what it is?

Do you even care?

I sure hope so...


Arsenios
Arsenios, ya got myths and legalistic mill stones made up from fictional traditions.
 

MennoSota

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We wrote the Bible for you...

Are you now calling the Bible speculation??


Arsenios
You mishandle God's word and twist it with myths and fictional traditions. You have proved it with your salvation by works teaching.
 
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