What is God's role in salvation?

Lämmchen said:

You refuse to see that the Christian repentance is not just stopping from doing something wrong. It's turning to God in faith. Nonbelievers don't believe in God to turn to Him. Hence, they do not fully repent.

Click to expand...

You have accurately depicted the difference...

You cannot turn to a God in Whom you do not believe, and that believing takes a lot of forms...

Yet repentance is FROM sin, and not TOWARD God...

How do you REPENT TOWARD GOD??

I do know how one repents FROM sin...

You just stop doing it...

This you denigrate as mere "worldly repentance"...

I do not think God denigrates repentance from sin...


Arsenios

Lämmchen said:

Nonbelievers don't believe in God to turn to Him.
Hence, they do not fully repent.

Click to expand...

True repentance is never committing the same sin again...

God DOES Call us to repentance, yes?

And repentance is PRIOR TO Justification by God, yes?


Arsenios

Lämmchen said:

You left out God. You need to put God back into the truth of what repentance is.

Acts 20:21 "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus."

Click to expand...

The Scripture here is clear - One must turn to God IN repentance...

And clearly it does not say that repentance IS turning to God...

One must already be repenting in order to turn to God...

Repentance is one thing...

Turning to God is another...

Thank-you for that very helpful Scripture...


Arsenios

Lämmchen said:

If you don't turn to God, then you aren't in full repentance. Turning away from sin...that's only the first part. The second part is turning toward God as the verse states. Again you keep leaving God out of the equation and don't give Him credit where it's due.

Click to expand...

The way it normally works is that, if you receive, say, the Apostolic Calling from God as did Paul, then the event is overwhelming, and you will immediately stop with your major sins, and in remembrance of God you now know, you will seek Him and call upon Him and conjoin yourself to Him insofar as you can at this early stage... And it varies greatly from person to person...

In the early Church, one would seek out the Church for healing, being discipled in the Way of God, and being Baptized into Christ, all by God... You seem to have a great deal invested in your accusation against me that I keep on leaving God out of this unfolding, and if you start with the Call of God unto Repentance, which is what I do, then it is God Who is Calling a person to repentance, and God is present at the beginning... But I am further affirming of the movement of God even in the souls of unbelievers in such a way that the Call is prepared for in and by life's events... The Way is prepared for the Call to succeed, generally by crises and failures...

fwiw, I do not like to see the usage of the word "Equation" regarding Salvation... I know Josiah uses it a lot, and likes to accuse others of trying to ADD TO the Salvation only God can give... And that this "adding to" he accuses me of doing when I say that we must repent prior to being Justified by God... It is a particularly odious and malodorous accusation by equation: "God's Grace plus WHAT, Arsenios, adds up to salvation, hey???" (snark-snark)

The EOC understands that God gives His Grace of Salvation freely and very much superabundantly, and we further understand that the better prepared for it we are in our discipleship, the MORE of that Grace we will be able to retain... So that repentance does not add so much as a speck to God's Grace of Salvation, but it most assuredly enables the penitent to retain MORE of what ONLY God can give and does give superabundantly... Some retain but little, and others a great deal, each according to preparation and God's purposing...

Someone unprepared will retain little of it but a head's up that God is real...
A deeply prepared person will enter into profound Union with God right away...

But Joseph does not believe in preparation to receive Christ...

He believes in receiving Salvation first, and only THEN preparation...

Which is why his teaching is so heinous...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

You have accurately depicted the difference...

You cannot turn to a God in Whom you do not believe, and that believing takes a lot of forms...

Yet repentance is FROM sin, and not TOWARD God...

How do you REPENT TOWARD GOD??

I do know how one repents FROM sin...

You just stop doing it...

This you denigrate as mere "worldly repentance"...

I do not think God denigrates repentance from sin...


Arsenios

Click to expand...

[Mat 7:21-23 NIV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Mat 23:23-28 NIV] 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

[Pro 14:12 NIV] 12 There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

I believe that one can turn from socially unacceptable sins (like stealing and murder) to socially acceptable sins (like hypocracy and moral legalism) without ever turning towards God ... and it profits a man nothing.

atpollard said:

I believe that one can turn from socially unacceptable sins (like stealing and murder)
to socially acceptable sins (like hypocracy and moral legalism)
without ever turning towards God ...
and it profits a man nothing.

Click to expand...

I do too...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

You have accurately depicted the difference...

You cannot turn to a God in Whom you do not believe, and that believing takes a lot of forms...

Yet repentance is FROM sin, and not TOWARD God...

How do you REPENT TOWARD GOD??

Click to expand...

Verse 9 tells us. The Thessalonians turned to God...from idols. THAT is repentance toward God. They made a 180 degree turn (repentance).

1 Thessalonians 1:2-10
We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantlymentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and
how you turned to God from idols
to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

There are two very different words in Greek (as Arsenios might know).... one means to feel sorrow (which of course even your dog can have) the other means to make an about face. Repentance is not simply feeling bad for what self did, said, felt (or the lack thereof). Such has NOTHING to do with justification (or sanctification).


I have difficulty even imagining a DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God who passionately holds that God doesn't even exist... or is wise or that we are responsible to anything supernatural.... nonetheless holding that self violated the WISE morality of GOD..... feeling remorse for such..... looking to Christ for mercy and forgiveness..... looking to the Holy Spirit in them for direction and strength.... dedicating themselves to walk in the way of the Lord.




.

MennoSota said:

Verse 9 tells us. The Thessalonians turned to God...from idols. THAT is repentance toward God. They made a 180 degree turn (repentance).

1 Thessalonians 1:2-10
We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantlymentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and
how you turned to God from idols
to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Click to expand...

Turning from idols is repentance...

Turning to God is the Faith...

We are Called to repentance by God...

We are Justified in the Faith of Christ by God in Baptism INTO Christ...

We are Glorified by God in the workings of the Holy Spirit...


Arsenios

Josiah said:

There are two very different words in Greek (as Arsenios might know)....
.

Click to expand...

I only know metanoia - What is the other one?


Arsenios

Josiah said:

There are two very different words in Greek (as Arsenios might know).... one means to feel sorrow
(which of course even your dog can have) the other means to make an about face.
Repentance is not simply feeling bad for what self did, said, felt (or the lack thereof).
Such has NOTHING to do with justification (or sanctification).

Click to expand...

Metanoia does...

Without it there is no Justification...

I have difficulty even imagining a DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God who passionately holds that God doesn't even exist... or is wise or that we are responsible to anything supernatural.... nonetheless holding that self violated the WISE morality of GOD..... feeling remorse for such..... looking to Christ for mercy and forgiveness..... looking to the Holy Spirit in them for direction and strength.... dedicating themselves to walk in the way of the Lord.

Click to expand...

Justification has nothing to do with your imagination...


Arsenios

MennoSota said:

Verse 9 tells us.
The Thessalonians turned to God...from idols.
THAT is repentance toward God.
They made a 180 degree turn (repentance).

Click to expand...

Yes, they turned 180 degrees FROM idols...

You CANNOT turn 180 degrees toward God...

God is not 180 degrees from idols...

Nor 179 degrees...

Nor 183...

Had they repented from God, they would have likewise have turned away from Him...

To REPENT means to TURN AWAY FROM...

It does not mean to turn toward...

Even though it is true that in response to the Call of God, we do turn towards God IN repentance...

I ran into this argument on another forum - eg We REPENT TOWARD God...

Look - When you are enthralled with idols, you have to turn from them in order that you even CAN turn toward God...

And the Call of God gives you that boost, but it is not free sledding from there on out...

You will be tested by the idols God turned you from...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Turning from idols is repentance...

Turning to God is the Faith...

We are Called to repentance by God...

We are Justified in the Faith of Christ by God in Baptism INTO Christ...

We are Glorified by God in the workings of the Holy Spirit...


Arsenios

Click to expand...

The entire 180 is repentance that is caused by faith. Without faith, you cannot repent.

In the Jewish tradition, repentance is called teshuvah, a Hebrew word translated as “returning.”

Wilhemena said:

In the Jewish tradition, repentance is called teshuvah, a Hebrew word translated as “returning.”

Click to expand...

It seems to me that would require one "knowing" God. And that's something the unregenerate atheist does not.

And it seems to me that that would please God. And God says it is impossible to please God apart from faith.




.