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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: What is God's role in salvation?

    1. #111
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You make election man-centered. No one "found" anything because no one seeks God, not even one.
      that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, (Acts 17:27)

      It shocks me how human-centered your concept of salvation is.
      And he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28)

      Have a re-read of Genesis and see for whom creation was made.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    2. #112
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, (Acts 17:27)



      And he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28)

      Have a re-read of Genesis and see for whom creation was made.
      Romans 3:10-26
      “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

      Acts 13:48
      And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

    3. #113
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You make election man-centered.
      No one "found" anything because no one seeks God,
      not even one.
      It shocks me how human-centered your concept of salvation is.
      Salvation had BETTER be human centered...
      Because it is HUMANs who NEED it...

      Here is Matthew:

      Mat 15:23-28
      But He answered her not a word.
      And His disciples came and besought Him, saying,
      Send her away; for she is crying after us.
      But He answered and said,
      "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
      Then came she and worshipped Him,
      Saying, "Lord, help me."
      But He answered and said,
      "It is not meet to take the children's bread,
      and to cast it to dogs."

      And she said,
      "Truth, Lord:
      Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

      Then Jesus answered and said unto her,
      "O woman, great is thy faith:
      be it unto thee even as thou wilt."

      And her daughter was made whole
      from that very hour.


      The Jews were the chosen people of God,
      and Christ our God only came to save the Jews...
      Christ refused this non-Jewish woman's pleas...
      Yet she confessed Him and worshipped Him...
      And He saved this woman's daughter...
      Through the great faith of the mother...

      Indeed He FAILED to Save the Jews...
      The very Jews He was sent to Save...
      The choice of Good and evil is ours to take...
      Not taking it is a choice...


      Arsenios

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    5. #114
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Acts 13:48
      And when the Gentiles heard this,
      they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord,
      and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
      The text actually reads even more in your favor, for it literally:

      "And they believed - As many as had been ordained unto Life Eternal."

      Yet it still does not prove what you say - eg The causal connection between fore-ordination causing belief...

      It can just as easily be understood to say "As many as believed were ordained to Life Eternal."

      And this because the "They believed" (in the Greek) precedes the "as many as..."

      And even if it does mean in this case that those were the pre-selected ones, we are accounting the founding of the Faith into the Ekklesia...

      For God to be placing special folks here for that purpose is not surprising...

      It does not make it some kind of eternal truth for all believers...

      And this even if God fore-knows and fore-ordains...

      The person in this life STILL needs to SIEZE God's teaching...

      And God has ordained and foreknows that he WILL seize it...

      And He Calls him to repentance... etc etc...


      Arsenios

    6. #115
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Salvation had BETTER be human centered...
      Because it is HUMANs who NEED it...

      Here is Matthew:

      Mat 15:23-28
      But He answered her not a word.
      And His disciples came and besought Him, saying,
      Send her away; for she is crying after us.
      But He answered and said,
      "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
      Then came she and worshipped Him,
      Saying, "Lord, help me."
      But He answered and said,
      "It is not meet to take the children's bread,
      and to cast it to dogs."

      And she said,
      "Truth, Lord:
      Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

      Then Jesus answered and said unto her,
      "O woman, great is thy faith:
      be it unto thee even as thou wilt."

      And her daughter was made whole
      from that very hour.


      The Jews were the chosen people of God,
      and Christ our God only came to save the Jews...
      Christ refused this non-Jewish woman's pleas...
      Yet she confessed Him and worshipped Him...
      And He saved this woman's daughter...
      Through the great faith of the mother...

      Indeed He FAILED to Save the Jews...
      The very Jews He was sent to Save...
      The choice of Good and evil is ours to take...
      Not taking it is a choice...


      Arsenios
      Salvation is all to the glory of God, for the glory of God. God chooses whom he wills without asking your opinion. It's called Sovereignty.

    7. #116
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Salvation is all to the glory of God,
      for the glory of God.
      God chooses whom he wills
      without asking your opinion.
      It's called Sovereignty.
      We need to Glorify God...
      God does not need us to Glorify Him...
      God Glorifies those He has Justified...

      God does not need our worship...
      WE are the ones needing to worship Him...

      Salvation IS the Glorification of man in God...
      Only God can Glorify...
      Thus only God can Save...


      Arsenios

    8. #117
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Salvation is all to the glory of God, for the glory of God. God chooses whom he wills without asking your opinion. It's called Sovereignty.
      Please engage the text provided above and below:

      Mat 15:23-28
      But He answered her not a word.
      And His disciples came and besought Him, saying,
      Send her away; for she is crying after us.
      But He answered and said,
      "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
      Then came she and worshipped Him,
      Saying, "Lord, help me."
      But He answered and said,
      "It is not meet to take the children's bread,
      and to cast it to dogs."
      And she said,
      "Truth, Lord:
      Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
      Then Jesus answered and said unto her,
      "O woman, great is thy faith:
      be it unto thee even as thou wilt."
      And her daughter was made whole
      from that very hour.

      Thank-you...


      Arsenios

    9. #118
      MennoSota is offline Bronze Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      We need to Glorify God...
      God does not need us to Glorify Him...
      God Glorifies those He has Justified...

      God does not need our worship...
      WE are the ones needing to worship Him...

      Salvation IS the Glorification of man in God...
      Only God can Glorify...
      Thus only God can Save...


      Arsenios
      We worship Him because He has chosen us to be saved. Non-believers will not worship God.
      God only justifies the elect precisely be cause God has given them faith. We worship God because He has Redeemed us.
      Salvation is the Redemption of God's chosen ones, which glorifies God because of His amazing grace.
      Why do you insist upon humans being the cause agent that effects God to act when the truth is that God is the cause agent that effects humans to act. Arsenios, you are putting the cart before the horse.

    10. #119
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Please engage the text provided above and below:

      Mat 15:23-28
      But He answered her not a word.
      And His disciples came and besought Him, saying,
      Send her away; for she is crying after us.
      But He answered and said,
      "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
      Then came she and worshipped Him,
      Saying, "Lord, help me."
      But He answered and said,
      "It is not meet to take the children's bread,
      and to cast it to dogs."
      And she said,
      "Truth, Lord:
      Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
      Then Jesus answered and said unto her,
      "O woman, great is thy faith:
      be it unto thee even as thou wilt."
      And her daughter was made whole
      from that very hour.

      Thank-you...


      Arsenios
      God is kind to all whom He wills. In this passage you see the Sovereignty of God to do whatsoever He wills.

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