Did Abraham conjure up his own faith...

Pedrito · Jan 24, 2019

==============================================================================================

I thank MennoSota for his contribution of [KJV text used here]:
- 2 Peter 1:1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:;
- Philippians 1:29: For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
- Acts 3:16: And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

They are significant truths, and we can learn from them.

But are they proof texts?

In both English and Greek, the word “faith” has a broad range of meanings. That range of meanings can be, and is, used to confuse the issue with respect to a particular belief. Whether the confusing use is accidental (through lack of accurate understanding) or deliberate, the effect is the same.

(As a parallel example, some Christians deliberately confuse two main meanings of the verb “judge” – those meanings being: (a) to discern; and (b) to look down on, or criticise – so that they (the Christians) can avoid the responsibility laid on them in 1 John 5:16-17.)

So let’s have a closer look.

==============================================================================================

I submit the following:

In 2 Peter 1:1, the Greek word translated “obtained” actually has the meaning of obtaining by lot. But does that mean that the faith mentioned was implanted without the recipient’s volition? Jesus’ statement in John 6:37 indicates that it is the call that is by lot, and that those who respond to that call by faith are accepted without reservation.

Philippians 1:29 is discussing privilege, not an external injection of faith.

Acts 3:16 refers back to Acts 3:6-8. The healing of the crippled man was an external miracle performed by Peter, and was not the result of an implantation of faith in the cripple. The occurrences of “him” in Acts 3:16 refers back to the previous verse (Acts 3:15).

So it would seem that none of the three Scripture references provided, can actually be seen as a proof text.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean that no proof texts exist. We need to wait and see what else can be offered in that regard.

==============================================================================================

FredVB · Jun 22, 2019

Abraham was an amazing man of faith, an example to us. He knew there was the one God, revealed in previous generations, still forsaken by others everywhere, for gods and beliefs others came up with. When he heard God, he responded obediently every time, which we generally don't do, even ones among us claiming we do.

MennoSota · Jun 22, 2019

FredVB said:
Abraham was an amazing man of faith, an example to us. He knew there was the one God, revealed in previous generations, still forsaken by others everywhere, for gods and beliefs others came up with. When he heard God, he responded obediently every time, which we generally don't do, even ones among us claiming we do.

Abram was a descendant of those who built the tower of Babel. He was a pagan living in the most prosperous place on earth at the time.
Genesis 11:18-26 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he fathered Reu. And Peleg lived after he fathered Reu 209 years and had other sons and daughters. When Reu had lived 32 years, he fathered Serug. And Reu lived after he fathered Serug 207 years and had other sons and daughters. When Serug had lived 30 years, he fathered Nahor. And Serug lived after he fathered Nahor 200 years and had other sons and daughters. When Nahor had lived 29 years, he fathered Terah. And Nahor lived after he fathered Terah 119 years and had other sons and daughters. When Terah had lived 70 years, he fathered Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Abram only went as far as Haran and didn't go further until God talked with him again. Abram struggled to trust God. He lied (twice) about his wife and God bailed him out. He and Sarai attempted to follow their own plan for offspring through Hagar and Ishmael. God said...No.
Despite Abrams sin and doubt, God chose to extend grace and blessing.
So...Abram didn't respond in obedience everytime (neither do we), but God chose to bless Abram anyway. This is because God is Sovereign and he extends grace to whom he wills.

psalms 91 · Jun 22, 2019

The bible also talks of Abrahams great faith to be emulated. Yes, he was a man subject to sin like all of us and doubts but His faith saved him and he is called righteous and a man of great faith

MennoSota · Jun 22, 2019

psalms 91 said:
The bible also talks of Abrahams great faith to be emulated. Yes, he was a man subject to sin like all of us and doubts but His faith saved him and he is called righteous and a man of great faith

Abraham was gifted faith, by God's grace. It is significant that it wasn't until after God made the sacrificial covenant with Abraham that Abraham truly became full of faith. In that covenant, God expressed that if He did not keep the covenant with Abraham, He (God) would be cut in two like those animals. It is also significant that only God walked between the animals and made the covenant. Abraham knew (as did God) that Abraham couldn't keep that covenant with God, but...God could keep the covenant with Abraham.
Who wouldn't have faith after experiencing such a promise.
It is that covenant promise that allowed Abraham to confidently believe that God would somehow save Isaac from death upon the altar.
That sacrificial death would come by God the Father with His son, Jesus.

FredVB · Jul 6, 2019

FredVB said:
Abraham was an amazing man of faith, an example to us. He knew there was the one God, revealed in previous generations, still forsaken by others everywhere, for gods and beliefs others came up with. When he heard God, he responded obediently every time, which we generally don't do, even ones among us claiming we do.

MennoSota said:
Abram was a descendant of those who built the tower of Babel. He was a pagan living in the most prosperous place on earth at the time.
Genesis 11:18-26 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he fathered Reu. And Peleg lived after he fathered Reu 209 years and had other sons and daughters. When Reu had lived 32 years, he fathered Serug. And Reu lived after he fathered Serug 207 years and had other sons and daughters. When Serug had lived 30 years, he fathered Nahor. And Serug lived after he fathered Nahor 200 years and had other sons and daughters. When Nahor had lived 29 years, he fathered Terah. And Nahor lived after he fathered Terah 119 years and had other sons and daughters. When Terah had lived 70 years, he fathered Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Abram only went as far as Haran and didn't go further until God talked with him again. Abram struggled to trust God. He lied (twice) about his wife and God bailed him out. He and Sarai attempted to follow their own plan for offspring through Hagar and Ishmael. God said...No.
Despite Abrams sin and doubt, God chose to extend grace and blessing.
So...Abram didn't respond in obedience everytime (neither do we), but God chose to bless Abram anyway. This is because God is Sovereign and he extends grace to whom he wills.

That Abram only went as far as Haran until God talked with him and showed him where to go was not disobedience of Abram, as he could only go where Yahweh God showed him to go, which he did obey. He could not know where it was that God would show him. And God would not show him to cross the wide desert that lay across a direct route to the land God would show him. All people who went to that place went around it north of that desert. That is where Haran was. So Abram had to go by where Haran was. When he came to Haran, then God showed him, when he was well stocked in the time he was in Haran. It really twists it to say Abram was disobedient. He didn't do everything right, but people don't do everything right, you or I don't either, and before the time of the new testament of the Bible, and especially before the old testament of the Bible was written, people were certainly not doing things right. At the time Abram was the only one responding to Yahweh God with obedience, while no one including Abram was ready to be shown everything, like when God did show things when he delivered the descendent people out of slavery and they testified that they would do as Yahweh showed.

Abraham did do wrong things where he did not trust God to provide for those circumstances in another way, where God never told him anything for those times. God still used those times to bless Abraham abundantly.

MennoSota · Jul 6, 2019

FredVB said:
That Abram only went as far as Haran until God talked with him and showed him where to go was not disobedience of Abram, as he could only go where Yahweh God showed him to go, which he did obey. He could not know where it was that God would show him. And God would not show him to cross the wide desert that lay across a direct route to the land God would show him. All people who went to that place went around it north of that desert. That is where Haran was. So Abram had to go by where Haran was. When he came to Haran, then God showed him, when he was well stocked in the time he was in Haran. It really twists it to say Abram was disobedient. He didn't do everything right, but people don't do everything right, you or I don't either, and before the time of the new testament of the Bible, and especially before the old testament of the Bible was written, people were certainly not doing things right. At the time Abram was the only one responding to Yahweh God with obedience, while no one including Abram was ready to be shown everything, like when God did show things when he delivered the descendent people out of slavery and they testified that they would do as Yahweh showed.

Abraham did do wrong things where he did not trust God to provide for those circumstances in another way, where God never told him anything for those times. God still used those times to bless Abraham abundantly.

Abram knew where God was sending him, but he settled in Haran instead.

Genesis 11:31 Terah took Abram his son and Lot the son of Haran, his grandson, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram’s wife, and they went forth together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan, but when they came to Haran, they settled there.

God, later, has to speak to Abram and get him out of his comfort zone.

Genesis 12:1-4 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

This passage speaks about the graciousness of God. God allowed Abram to stop, despite the fact that Abram was supposed to go to Canaan.
We cannot judge Abram as God was essentially sending Abram to the third world country of Canaan when he and Sarai were comfortable with a wealthier culture that was far ahead of Caanan intellectually and economically.
God is kind and gracious.

Michael · Jul 7, 2019

Abraham's faith proven by his obedience

Indeed there were many gods in the time Abram was called by El Shaddai (just as there are many 'gods' today).

Abram CHOSE to believe what the One True God spoke and heeded His command to go out from Ur, not knowing where he was going. And because Abraham passed the tests given to him and obeyed the commands of God, therefore the promises made to him by God were continued to his son Isaac & then Jacob. As the Lord God clearly said -

"I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” - Gen 26:4-5

This obedience proved Abram's faith. We know "faith without works is dead." (James 2:17, James 2:20, James 2:26). Man I love the Truth in the letter of James, yet so many cannot accept it.

One can say that God gave Abram the faith, and that may be True... but in the end, Abram had to choose to believe and prove his faith by his actions. We we prove our "faith" by our behavior and our obedience. Amen.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going." - Heb 11:8

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." - Heb 11:17

Thus says the Word of the Lord.

Peace & Blessings to all.

MennoSota · Jul 7, 2019

Michael said:
Indeed there were many gods in the time Abram was called by El Shaddai (just as there are many 'gods' today).

Abram CHOSE to believe what the One True God spoke and heeded His command to go out from Ur, not knowing where he was going. And because Abraham passed the tests given to him and obeyed the commands of God, therefore the promises made to him by God were continued to his son Isaac & then Jacob. As the Lord God clearly said -

"I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” - Gen 26:4-5

This obedience proved Abram's faith. We know "faith without works is dead." (James 2:17, James 2:20, James 2:26). Man I love the Truth in the letter of James, yet so many cannot accept it.

One can say that God gave Abram the faith, and that may be True... but in the end, Abram had to choose to believe and prove his faith by his actions. We we prove our "faith" by our behavior and our obedience. Amen.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going." - Heb 11:8

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." - Heb 11:17

Thus says the Word of the Lord.

Peace & Blessings to all.

If Abraham had chosen the true God out of many, he would not be commended for having faith. He would be commended for a lucky choice.
Abraham struggled with faith when he attempted to use his own logic. In fact he failed mightily on a number of occasions.
Yet God...
...chose Abraham anyway (just as God chooses us anyway). God made a covenant with himself and walked between the two halves of the animal carcasses, giving a clear message to Abraham that God would get cut in half if he failed in His covenant with Abraham. It is after this vivid covenant that we see Abraham being given exceptional faith so that he could willingly sacrifice the child by which God would bring the promised one, Jesus, the Messiah.
It is utterly foolish to claim that Abraham chose God.

Michael · Jul 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
If Abraham had chosen the true God out of many, he would not be commended for having faith. He would be commended for a lucky choice.
Abraham struggled with faith when he attempted to use his own logic. In fact he failed mightily on a number of occasions.
Yet God...
...chose Abraham anyway (just as God chooses us anyway). God made a covenant with himself and walked between the two halves of the animal carcasses, giving a clear message to Abraham that God would get cut in half if he failed in His covenant with Abraham. It is after this vivid covenant that we see Abraham being given exceptional faith so that he could willingly sacrifice the child by which God would bring the promised one, Jesus, the Messiah.
It is utterly foolish to claim that Abraham chose God.

Amen. I agree. Didn't say Abram chose God. Rather he had to CHOOSE to believe what El Shaddai said to him. And Abram proved that he had faith in God's revelation as he obeyed what God told him.
It really is that simple!

Michael · Jul 7, 2019

The argument that nearly always arises when speaking of "faith" is one of 'do I have to do anything other than just believe?'
The Scriptural answer is - to be saved from bondage to sin - NO. Belief alone is enough. One can begin the journey by believing alone.
BUT...
To receive the promises of God - YES. Absolutely we have to "walk worthy", repent (actually turn away form sin), and prove our "faith" by what we do (our behavior, our works).

I love the letter of James to the saints. Martin Luther hated it, because it spoke the Truth of having to do "works" to be seen as "righteous" in God's eyes.

"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." - James 2:20-24

And when we realize that God judges & recompenses no one by what they claim to believe or have faith in, but rather always and only "according to our works" the whole of Scripture begins to make so much more sense.
(see Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12 & Rev 22:12, for starters)

May God indeed know we have faith as did Abraham, because, as he, we "obey His voice and keep His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws.” (Gen 26:5)

Amen.

MennoSota · Jul 9, 2019

Michael said:
The argument that nearly always arises when speaking of "faith" is one of 'do I have to do anything other than just believe?'
The Scriptural answer is - to be saved from bondage to sin - NO. Belief alone is enough. One can begin the journey by believing alone.
BUT...
To receive the promises of God - YES. Absolutely we have to "walk worthy", repent (actually turn away form sin), and prove our "faith" by what we do (our behavior, our works).

I love the letter of James to the saints. Martin Luther hated it, because it spoke the Truth of having to do "works" to be seen as "righteous" in God's eyes.

"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." - James 2:20-24

And when we realize that God judges & recompenses no one by what they claim to believe or have faith in, but rather always and only "according to our works" the whole of Scripture begins to make so much more sense.
(see Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12 & Rev 22:12, for starters)

May God indeed know we have faith as did Abraham, because, as he, we "obey His voice and keep His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws.” (Gen 26:5)

Amen.

God judges his elect according to Christ Jesus atoning work. It is precisely be why we can echo the Apostle Paul.
Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Michael · Jul 10, 2019

MennoSota said:
God judges his elect according to Christ Jesus atoning work. It is precisely be why we can echo the Apostle Paul.
Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God judges His Elect "according to their works" as we find in the multitude of verses I mentioned above.
Show me a single verse that states God judges us 'according to Christ Jesus atoning work' and I'll take it into consideration.
And in Romans 8:31-39 (in which I've spent extensive time), we'll notice that Paul doesn't mention the ONE THING that Scripture says WILL separate us from the love of God... and that is SIN. Period. If we continue in sin, as Paul writes many times, we will NOT inherit that Kingdom of God. It is pure humanism to believe that we can remain in sin, and expect Christ Jesus to be pleased when He returns.
http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/romans-8-study/assurance

I'm not coming against you personally in this. I only stand by what the Word declares and speak against doctrine that leads the saints astray and will find them wanting in that Day.
Peace & Blessings.

MennoSota · Jul 10, 2019

Michael said:
God judges His Elect "according to their works" as we find in the multitude of verses I mentioned above.
Show me a single verse that states God judges us 'according to Christ Jesus atoning work' and I'll take it into consideration.
And in Romans 8:31-39 (in which I've spent extensive time), we'll notice that Paul doesn't mention the ONE THING that Scripture says WILL separate us from the love of God... and that is SIN. Period. If we continue in sin, as Paul writes many times, we will NOT inherit that Kingdom of God. It is pure humanism to believe that we can remain in sin, and expect Christ Jesus to be pleased when He returns.
http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/romans-8-study/assurance

I'm not coming against you personally in this. I only stand by what the Word declares and speak against doctrine that leads the saints astray and will find them wanting in that Day.
Peace & Blessings.

We, whom God has chosen to redeem, will not continue in sin, because God will not have his children continue in sin.
Notice how verse 29, we receive a Kingdom that cannot be shaken.
God does not fail his children. He never leaves us and never forsakes us. He will keep everyone he has chosen.
Hebrews 12:7-29 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.

Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

I am always surprised when Christians, who never sought God as pagans, but were chosen by God by grace alone, then turn around and imagine that God will abandon his chosen if they don't live a good enough life.
Michael, why do you attempt to maintain God's favor by your own self-righteousness when you were never chosen by God because of any self-righteousness. You were dead in your trespasses and sins...but God...chose you by his grace. (Ephesians 1 and 2 prove this point.)

Michael · Jul 10, 2019

MennoSota said:
I am always surprised when Christians, who never sought God as pagans, but were chosen by God by grace alone, then turn around and imagine that God will abandon his chosen if they don't live a good enough life.
Michael, why do you attempt to maintain God's favor by your own self-righteousness when you were never chosen by God because of any self-righteousness. You were dead in your trespasses and sins...but God...chose you by his grace. (Ephesians 1 and 2 prove this point.)

Because the bulk of the New Testament warns "Christians" that if they do not "walk worthy" and "add to their faith" and use their "talents" wisely and "repent" and "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus, and "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling"... they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
FAITH is trusting in God and His Word. If we don't believe ALL of His Word, then we don't believe.
Sadly, much of the modern Religion of "Christianity" ignores a great many portions of the Scripture in favor of a "gospel" that requires nothing of the saints other than a mental assent to certain facts.
Don't know what else to say at this point, other than I am personally choosing to press in and accept that ALL Jesus & His Apostles taught is True.

Lamb · Jul 10, 2019

Michael said:
Because the bulk of the New Testament warns "Christians" that if they do not "walk worthy" and "add to their faith" and use their "talents" wisely and "repent" and "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus, and "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling"... they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
FAITH is trusting in God and His Word. If we don't believe ALL of His Word, then we don't believe.
Sadly, much of the modern Religion of "Christianity" ignores a great many portions of the Scripture in favor of a "gospel" that requires nothing of the saints other than a mental assent to certain facts.
Don't know what else to say at this point, other than I am personally choosing to press in and accept that ALL Jesus & His Apostles taught is True.

Those warnings are to show us that we can fall from faith. It's by grace through faith we are saved and not by works. God doesn't need our works. Does He? Why would the mighty God need your works? He doesn't. But your neighbor does. You walk in faith so that your neighbor can benefit. If you don't walk in faith your neighbor suffers and that makes you an unloving person and if you don't love your neighbor then how much do you really love God? If you don't love God then how much faith do you really have? Do you see the connection? What we DO doesn't save us. It's what Jesus did that saves us. We remain in faith until the end. We don't have to prove anything to God or work our way toward something that Jesus accomplished.

Unless you're saying Jesus' death wasn't sufficient for you?

Michael · Jul 10, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Those warnings are to show us that we can fall from faith. It's by grace through faith we are saved and not by works. God doesn't need our works. Does He? Why would the mighty God need your works? He doesn't. But your neighbor does. You walk in faith so that your neighbor can benefit. If you don't walk in faith your neighbor suffers and that makes you an unloving person and if you don't love your neighbor then how much do you really love God? If you don't love God then how much faith do you really have? Do you see the connection? What we DO doesn't save us. It's what Jesus did that saves us. We remain in faith until the end. We don't have to prove anything to God or work our way toward something that Jesus accomplished.

Unless you're saying Jesus' death wasn't sufficient for you?

Because of Jesus' obedience to the Father, and His death and Resurrection; and because God "made Him Lord and Christ", and "gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth", I (we) all have the opportunity to begin the journey, follow Jesus and walk the Way of the Cross.

I'm truly curious... Have you read much of the New Testament?
If the Apostle Paul was aware of and concerned that he could "be disqualified" from inheriting the Kingdom, how can we today possibly think that a mere 'profession of faith' gains us everything? That is pure foolishness.
To back up what I teach and show that we must indeed "walk worthy" of our calling, and prove our faith by our works... I would have to post almost the entire New Testament here. So with space limited, if any are in the least bit interested, I've shared some here on what the Scripture teaches about the absolute need for the saints to overcome and be found worthy in that Day if they are to receive the promises of Revelation 2 & 3 -

https://youtu.be/TjY7Y0ryRkc

Josiah · Jul 10, 2019

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]

Michael said:
Because the bulk of the New Testament warns "Christians" that if they do not "walk worthy" and "add to their faith" and use their "talents" wisely and "repent" and "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus, and "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling"... they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
FAITH is trusting in God and His Word. If we don't believe ALL of His Word, then we don't believe.
Sadly, much of the modern Religion of "Christianity" ignores a great many portions of the Scripture in favor of a "gospel" that requires nothing of the saints other than a mental assent to certain facts.
Don't know what else to say at this point, other than I am personally choosing to press in and accept that ALL Jesus & His Apostles taught is True.

Friend,

AGAIN, you seem to lack any distinction between justification and sanctification.... between the role of faith in each.

Again, NO dead, atheistic, enemy of God creates faith in his own dead self and gives it to self - coming to faith. NO dead, atheistic, enemy of God creates spiritual life in his rotten, dead self - coming to spiritual life. NO dead, atheistic, unregenerate enemy of God gives self the Holy Soirit. NO dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself. The ENTIRETY of Christianity hinges on this point: Jesus is the Savior (not self!). Jesus is necessary BECAUSE no dead, atheistic, unregenerate enemy of God CAN create and give himself faith, life, salvation, the Holy Spirit. He is fallen and he CANNOT get up. We were DEAD in our trespasses and sins (what can DEAD people do?). NO ONE is CAPABLE of even saying "Jesus is Lord" the Bible insists (thus the Holy Spirit must grant it). Faith - life - the Holy Spirit are (as the Bible stresses) "the free gift of God." Friend, to deny this is to deny Christianity... the whole point of Christianity hinges on the reality that sinful, unregerate, sinners NEED to be SAVED (rescued!) - not just helped, not just inspired, not just taught (what all OTHER religious teach is all that is needed), NO, we must be SAVED. And GOD has supplied and GIVEN that Savior (not just helper, not teacher, not inspiration, not door opener but RESCUER) The Holy Spirit is the LORD and GIVER of life.... Jesus is THE (one and only and all-sufficient) SAVIOR.... Here the "free gift of faith" that "comes not from yourself" trusts and relies upon this free gift of God, this SAVIOR God has totally supplied. No one gives self life - physical or spiritual. No one gives self the Holy Spirit. No one gives self Salvation. They are "the free gift of God so that NO ONE has ANY REASON to boast of ANYTHING in themselves" (feelings, decisions, requests, works.... anything).

Answer this: WHO is the Savior? IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Christianity all hinges on this point: the Answer is Jesus. Every other religion hinges on this point: The Savior is you. Christianity calls on all to look EXCLUSIVELY to the Cross.... all other religions teach you to look in the mirror.

NOW..... once justified, once alive, once with faith, once with the Holy Spirit.... we are to GROW, mature, obey.... we are to love others AS WE HAVE BEEN loved by God (note the order). We are to give to others as Christ first gave to us. Once we are made His child, we are to grow increasingly like our Father. We are to grow in holiness, in obedience, in love, in service. And yes, the lack thereof CAN result in our damaging and even destroying our justifying faith (and thus our salvation). But what LIVING people do is not to be confused with what DEAD people do to create life for themselves. In sanctification (the CHRISTIAN walk), faith apprehends not God's mercy/grace/life but also His empowering for a new and different life.

Blur this - as you keep doing - and all Christianity is endangered. It is Satan himself who wants us to look away from Jesus... to minimize Him and maximize self.... to eliminate Jesus as THE (one, exclusive, all-sufficient) SAVIOR and make Him instead just a model, teacher, a possibility-maker, a helper. IMO, we are to lift high the Cross, not ourselves.

- Josiah

.

Lamb · Jul 10, 2019

Michael said:
Because of Jesus' obedience to the Father, and His death and Resurrection; and because God "made Him Lord and Christ", and "gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth", I (we) all have the opportunity to begin the journey, follow Jesus and walk the Way of the Cross.

I'm truly curious... Have you read much of the New Testament?
If the Apostle Paul was aware of and concerned that he could "be disqualified" from inheriting the Kingdom, how can we today possibly think that a mere 'profession of faith' gains us everything? That is pure foolishness.
To back up what I teach and show that we must indeed "walk worthy" of our calling, and prove our faith by our works... I would have to post almost the entire New Testament here. So with space limited, if any are in the least bit interested, I've shared some here on what the Scripture teaches about the absolute need for the saints to overcome and be found worthy in that Day if they are to receive the promises of Revelation 2 & 3 -

https://youtu.be/TjY7Y0ryRkc

I've read the entire bible through multiple times.

So based upon your confession of faith, God cannot save you based on Jesus' merits alone. You don't believe that Jesus is sufficient for your salvation. As a proclaimed Christian, doesn't that sound wrong?

MennoSota · Jul 10, 2019

Michael said:
Because the bulk of the New Testament warns "Christians" that if they do not "walk worthy" and "add to their faith" and use their "talents" wisely and "repent" and "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus, and "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling"... they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
FAITH is trusting in God and His Word. If we don't believe ALL of His Word, then we don't believe.
Sadly, much of the modern Religion of "Christianity" ignores a great many portions of the Scripture in favor of a "gospel" that requires nothing of the saints other than a mental assent to certain facts.
Don't know what else to say at this point, other than I am personally choosing to press in and accept that ALL Jesus & His Apostles taught is True.

Your first paragraph is false.
Those who do not inherit the Kingdom are the goats. They are and always have been under the curse. The sheep are and always have been the recipients of the inheritance.
Matthew 25 makes this clear. Ephesians 1 makes this clear.
Michael, your rejection of God's overwhelming teaching on predestination, election and choosing leads you to lift up human works as the means of maintaining salvation rather than accepting that what God begins in you, he will finish. We who are elect cannot not walk in fellowship with God. God's discipline will prevail.
Very simply put, your interpretation of scripture leads you to false conclusions.

Did Abraham conjure up his own faith...

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

God's Lil Lamb

Well-known member

simul justus et peccator

God's Lil Lamb

Well-known member