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    Christian Theology - Thread: Did Abraham conjure up his own faith...

    1. #31
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #30:
      Your commentary/opinion not withstanding, however, none of that changes the meaning of the verse.
      Exactly right.

      The original Greek tells us that the faith required for salvation is not a gift from God – the salvation is. That is what it clearly means.

      Any distorted meaning, a meaning other than that of the original Greek, but which can be read into the imprecise English version, can be seen for exactly what it is.

      And why is the application of a distorted meaning to this verse apparently so important?

      Could it be because the natural meaning is deemed dangerous to the cherished belief?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    2. #32
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      ================================================== ============================================

      There is a technique that is used over and over again in Christian circles.

      It is used because it works. It tricks most people. But when an occurrence of it is pointed out, it ends up having the opposite effect.

      The technique has a number of labels, including Reflected Credence, and Credence by Association. What happens is, an untrue concept or untrue statement is given credence by associating it with something else that is highly acceptable or undoubtedly true.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #1, a passage of Scripture is set forth and associated with the idea that Abraham’s faith was given to him by God as a part of the covenant of promise – that Abraham had no inherent faith of his own.

      Why don’t we have a look at that passage of Scripture (Romans 4:13-25), and see what it actually says? (Paul is speaking primarily to Jews at this point.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [[No hint of injected external faith here.]]
      14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. [[Showing Jews that the Law was not be all and end all.]]
      15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. [[Showing Jews that their concept of the Law was inadequate.]]
      16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, [[Faith like Abraham’s is what is required. No hint of external injection here.]]
      17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. [[As the NIV puts it: “He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed” – No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, [[There is a lesson coming.]],
      24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, [[Those who believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, will be deemed righteous. No hint of injected external faith here.]]
      25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. [[Nor here.]]

      ================================================== ============================================

      There is not even one occurrence of a statement indicating that God gave Abraham his faith – injected it into him, as it were.

      In summary, we see that an apparent attempt was made to support a particular idea, via reflected credence (or associated credence) gained from a particular passage of scripture. That idea was that Abraham had no faith of his own (but that God gave it to him). The Scripture passage tendered has ended up proving exactly the opposite, instead.

      Readers are now aware of what to look for in future.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    3. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      There is a technique that is used over and over again in Christian circles.

      It is used because it works. It tricks most people. But when an occurrence of it is pointed out, it ends up having the opposite effect.

      The technique has a number of labels, including Reflected Credence, and Credence by Association. What happens is, an untrue concept or untrue statement is given credence by associating it with something else that is highly acceptable or undoubtedly true.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #1, a passage of Scripture is set forth and associated with the idea that Abraham’s faith was given to him by God as a part of the covenant of promise – that Abraham had no inherent faith of his own.

      Why don’t we have a look at that passage of Scripture (Romans 4:13-25), and see what it actually says? (Paul is speaking primarily to Jews at this point.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [[No hint of injected external faith here.]]
      14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. [[Showing Jews that the Law was not be all and end all.]]
      15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. [[Showing Jews that their concept of the Law was inadequate.]]
      16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, [[Faith like Abraham’s is what is required. No hint of external injection here.]]
      17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. [[As the NIV puts it: “He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed” – No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, [[There is a lesson coming.]],
      24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, [[Those who believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, will be deemed righteous. No hint of injected external faith here.]]
      25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. [[Nor here.]]

      ================================================== ============================================

      There is not even one occurrence of a statement indicating that God gave Abraham his faith – injected it into him, as it were.

      In summary, we see that an apparent attempt was made to support a particular idea, via reflected credence (or associated credence) gained from a particular passage of scripture. That idea was that Abraham had no faith of his own (but that God gave it to him). The Scripture passage tendered has ended up proving exactly the opposite, instead.

      Readers are now aware of what to look for in future.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith and if that isn't God given faith then what in tarnation is it, huh?
      If you want to rile people up then go to a Christian site and give God ALL the glory for your salvation.

    4. Likes Josiah liked this post
    5. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by TurtleHare View Post
      Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith and if that isn't God given faith then what in tarnation is it, huh?
      Good point...

      And Jesus is the SAVIOR and thus does the saving; since faith is a aspect of saving us, who thus does that? Yup, exactly as the Bible says.... faith is the gift of God. And as most Christians say weekly in the Creed, "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life." Not "We believe in self, giving life and faith to self."
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    6. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      There is a technique that is used over and over again in Christian circles.

      It is used because it works. It tricks most people. But when an occurrence of it is pointed out, it ends up having the opposite effect.

      The technique has a number of labels, including Reflected Credence, and Credence by Association. What happens is, an untrue concept or untrue statement is given credence by associating it with something else that is highly acceptable or undoubtedly true.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #1, a passage of Scripture is set forth and associated with the idea that Abraham’s faith was given to him by God as a part of the covenant of promise – that Abraham had no inherent faith of his own.

      Why don’t we have a look at that passage of Scripture (Romans 4:13-25), and see what it actually says? (Paul is speaking primarily to Jews at this point.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [[No hint of injected external faith here.]]
      14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. [[Showing Jews that the Law was not be all and end all.]]
      15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. [[Showing Jews that their concept of the Law was inadequate.]]
      16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, [[Faith like Abraham’s is what is required. No hint of external injection here.]]
      17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. [[As the NIV puts it: “He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed” – No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” [[No hint of injected external faith there.]]
      23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, [[There is a lesson coming.]],
      24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, [[Those who believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, will be deemed righteous. No hint of injected external faith here.]]
      25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. [[Nor here.]]

      ================================================== ============================================

      There is not even one occurrence of a statement indicating that God gave Abraham his faith – injected it into him, as it were.

      In summary, we see that an apparent attempt was made to support a particular idea, via reflected credence (or associated credence) gained from a particular passage of scripture. That idea was that Abraham had no faith of his own (but that God gave it to him). The Scripture passage tendered has ended up proving exactly the opposite, instead.

      Readers are now aware of what to look for in future.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Our Lutheran and Calvinist interlocutors are absolutely determined to teach that faith is passively received by 'dead' people and that good works are actively done by dead people because they cannot conceive of any good works being done as part of being in The Way (as Christianity was initially called) nor can they allow human beings are participation of any kind in anything that results in salvation. But they allow human activity after regeneration. It's their theological traditions. They pretend it is all biblical. They deny it comes from their Traditions rather than from the holy scriptures.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    7. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by TurtleHare View Post
      Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith and if that isn't God given faith then what in tarnation is it, huh?
      The passage is about Faith meaning that the Lord, Jesus Christ, is the complete and perfect example of faith rather than that Jesus injects faith into each individual who comes to believe the gospel. Let's see what the passage says just to make sure that it is not being misinterpreted.
      Hebrews 12:1-17 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

      3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
      And let's see what commentators say about verse 2.
      Barnes Notes on The Bible
      Looking unto Jesus - As a further inducement to do this, the apostle exhorts us to look to the Saviour. We are to look to his holy life; to his patience and perseverance in trials; to what he endured in order to obtain the crown, and to his final success and triumph.

      The author and finisher of our faith - The word “our” is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God - occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. The apostle had not enumerated him among those who had been distinguished for their faith, but he now refers to him as above them all; as a case that deserved to stand by itself. It is probable that there is a continuance here of the allusion to the Grecian games which the apostle had commenced in the previous verse. The word “author” - ἀρχηγὸν archegon - (marg. beginner) - means properly the source, or cause of anything; or one who makes a beginning. It is rendered in Act 3:15; Act 5:31, “Prince”; in Heb 2:10, “Captain”; and in the place before us, “Author.”

      It does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The phrase “the beginner of faith,” or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it. The expression, then, does not mean properly that he produces faith in us, or that we believe because he causes us to believe - whatever may be the truth about that - but that he stands at the head as the most eminent example that can be referred to on the subject of faith. We are exhorted to look to him, as if at the Grecian games there was one who stood before the racer who had previously carried away every palm of victory; who had always been triumphant, and with whom there was no one who could be compared. The word “finisher” - τελειωτὴν teleioten - corresponds in meaning with the word “author.” It means that he is the completer as well as the beginner; the last as well as the first.

      As there has been no one hitherto who could be compared with him, so there will be no one hereafter; compare Rev 1:8, Rev 1:11. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last.” The word does not mean that he was the “finisher” of faith in the sense that he makes our faith complete or perfects it - whatever may be true about that - but that he occupies this elevated position of being beyond comparison above all others. Alike in the commencement and the close, in the beginning of faith, and in its ending, he stands pre-eminent. To this illustrious model we should look - as a racer would on one who had been always so successful that he surpassed all competitors and rivals. If this be the meaning, then it is not properly explained, as it is commonly (see Bloomfield and Stuart in loc.), by saying that the word here is synonymous with “rewarder,” and refers to the βραβευτὴς brabeutes - or the distributor of the prize; compare notes on Col 3:15, There is no instance where the word is used in this sense in the New Testament (compare Passow), nor would such an interpretation present so beautiful and appropriate a thought as the one suggested above.

      Cambridge Bible Commentary
      Hebrews 12:2
      looking unto Jesus] It is not possible to express in English the thought suggested by the Greek verb aphorôntes, which implies that we must “look away (from other things) unto Jesus.” It implies “the concentration of the wandering gaze into a single direction.”

      the author] The word is the same (ἀρχηγὸν) as that used in Heb_2:10. In Act_3:15; Act_5:31 it is rendered “a Prince,” as in Isa_30:4 (LXX.). By His faithfulness (Heb_3:2) he became our captain and standard-bearer on the path of faith.

      and finisher] He leads us to “the end of our faith,” which is the salvation of our souls (1Pe_1:9).

      of our faith] Rather, “of faith.”

      endured the cross, despising the shame] Lit., “endured a cross, despising shame.”

      is set down] Rather, “hath sat down” (Heb_1:3, Heb_8:1, Heb_10:12).
      The passage is not teaching that the Lord puts faith into people it is teaching that Jesus Christ is the example to which Christians must attentively behold so that they can follow his example.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    8. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Our Lutheran and Calvinist interlocutors are absolutely determined to teach that faith is passively received by 'dead' people

      ... because it's what the Bible says.... what the Ecumenical Council of Orange says... what the Creed says.....

      And because we believe that Jesus is the Savior and thus saves us.



      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee
      and that good works are actively done by dead people

      No, we say the opposite.

      The Bible says that it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without faith. Good works from God's perspective must be done from faith and by a spiritually living individual. Now, all realize, there is what in classic theology is called "civil righteousness" - it is good in society to help a little old lady across the street, whether such is done by a Christian or Buddhist or atheist, because it's good for society. God at times affirms such, as we all do. But such is not a "good work" in the sense here.

      And again, you confuse issues. OUR works DO play a role in sanctification, in our lives as Christians, what Christians are to do. But what a living person does because he is alive has no relevance to how that person came to life. Catholics tend to either evade the issue of COMING to faith, the COMING of the Holy Spirit, the COMING of spiritual life (exept when they proclaim the Creed but that's ignored), skip right over that because that would be affirming Jesus as the Savior, and they go directly to Sanctification - the results of that coming. It's good and right to talk about Sanctification, but not to suggest that's also how we COME to faith since such flat-out denies Jesus as the Savior, the central and foundational point of Christianity.




      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee
      nor can they allow human beings are participation of any kind in anything that results in salvation


      If by "salvation" you mean initial/narrow justification, then you are absolutely right. Calvinists and Lutherans believe that JESUS is the Savior. That there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved (including our own name). Some are obsessed with making self the Savior and demoting Jesus to maybe a helper or a teacher or an inspiration or a possibility maker or maybe nothing at all, just a nice guy. But yes, Calvinists and Lutherans hold that Jesus is the Savior. (in this context of initial/narrow justification). We agree with the Creed: "..... we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ who for our salvation came down from heaven..... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of Life."



      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee
      But they allow human activity after regeneration.

      Correct. Because those who are alive can live. Those with the Holy Spirit can do immeasurably more than they image. We are to love AS CHRIST FIRST LOVED US. Pohysically, if a person is alive, they can breathe. If a person is dead, they can't. ".... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life." Not ".... we believe that every dead person gives life to self." Or ".... we believe that dead people live and thus are given life."





      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    9. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Good point...
      No, it was not a good point it was an inaccurate and incorrect interpretation of what the verse teaches.

      And Jesus is the SAVIOR and thus does the saving; since faith is a aspect of saving us, who thus does that? Yup, exactly as the Bible says.... faith is the gift of God. And as most Christians say weekly in the Creed, "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life." Not "We believe in self, giving life and faith to self."
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    10. #39
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      ================================================== ============================================

      I am tempted to start using direct language – direct language that could be considered harsh by some – in situations pertaining to demonstrable, deliberate untruth.

      Accusations of flaming and the like regarding my method of expression, will obviously be inappropriate if the untruth being highlighted is indeed demonstrable. However, if such accusations constitute the only defence against the inconvenient exposure of untruths, …

      ================================================== ============================================

      Case in point: The need to misinterpret Ephesians 2:8 to make it mean something it does not. The misinterpretation is necessary to support a particular belief – to support the assertion that a person cannot have faith without that faith first being given to them by God.

      In Post #29 on Page 3, I pointed out (as before, elsewhere) that the original Greek language has only one meaning with respect to that verse. A totally clear meaning. That clear and only meaning is that it is the act of being saved that is being referred to as “not of yourselves”, not the faith. Any competent and honest Greek scholar will support that conclusion, because it is from such scholars that that meaning was obtained in the first place.

      In Post #31 on Page 4, I reiterated the clarity of the original Greek meaning, because the misinterpretation of that verse (deemed necessary to support the particular doctrine) was indirectly promulgated yet again in Post #30.

      Yet in Post #34 we see:
      And Jesus is the SAVIOR and thus does the saving; since faith is a aspect of saving us, who thus does that? Yup, exactly as the Bible says.... faith is the gift of God.
      We see the application of human logic, combined with the (can it now be seen as deliberate?) mishandling of Holy, Sacred Scripture – the Holy Bible to which lip service is so strongly paid.

      Depending on what other relevant Scripture is offered, or cannot be offered (the Romans 4:13-25 submitted in Post #1, had nothing at all to do with the concept), we might end up with another doctrinal entry in the "The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel" thread.


      ================================================== ============================================

      “Slowly, slowly catchee monkey.”
      (And I haven’t really got started with my use of direct language yet, have I?)

      ================================================== ============================================
      Last edited by Pedrito; 01-12-2019 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Correcting the URL pointer.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    11. #40
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      In the following passages observe that "faith" is presented as a something that is given from God to men and thus is a gift…

      Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to*those who have received a faith*of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:*2 Peter 1:1(Comment: The verb "received" is aorist active which signifies an event occurring at some point in time we received a faith like Peter's faith.)

      For to you*it has been granted*for Christ's sake, not only*to believe*in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,Philippians 1:29, and

      "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and*the faith which comes through Him*has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.*Acts 3:16.

      https://www.preceptaustin.org/ephesians_28-9

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