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Tradition
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The "tradition" of Fidder on the Roof is the third sense of Protestantism, it's CUSTOM, what is TRADITIONAL in terms of practice and life.
This JEWISH man (in perhaps my favorite musical) is NOT saying that that Jesus taught a whole bunch of dogmas that the Holy Spirit chose in His divine wisdom to not include in His Holy Scriptures to us, but instead revealed it to some individual denomination (the RCC or LDS or whatever) centuries later and eventually (maybe 1000 years later) that denomination chose to make it public. Nope, that's not what the musical is about.
Truth is, ALL Christians and Christian denominations have a LOT of customs. Most are universal, some aren't. Doesn't make them dogmas: theological truths that MUST be believed, teachings of highest importance and certainty possible. I recall a discussion with one of my Catholic teachers. I asked, "If someone knowingly denies some dogma of the church, can they still go to Heaven?" To which the answer was: "To knowingly deny a dogma is to be a heretic, and there are no heretics in heaven." Of course, what is and is not dogma perpetually, constantly changes in your denomination. But the point: The tradition of doing the Sign of the Cross is not theological Dogma.
This JEWISH man (in perhaps my favorite musical) is NOT saying that that Jesus taught a whole bunch of dogmas that the Holy Spirit chose in His divine wisdom to not include in His Holy Scriptures to us, but instead revealed it to some individual denomination (the RCC or LDS or whatever) centuries later and eventually (maybe 1000 years later) that denomination chose to make it public. Nope, that's not what the musical is about.
Truth is, ALL Christians and Christian denominations have a LOT of customs. Most are universal, some aren't. Doesn't make them dogmas: theological truths that MUST be believed, teachings of highest importance and certainty possible. I recall a discussion with one of my Catholic teachers. I asked, "If someone knowingly denies some dogma of the church, can they still go to Heaven?" To which the answer was: "To knowingly deny a dogma is to be a heretic, and there are no heretics in heaven." Of course, what is and is not dogma perpetually, constantly changes in your denomination. But the point: The tradition of doing the Sign of the Cross is not theological Dogma.
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The opening post....
Tradition:
Catholic Definition:
1. It's the RCC alone and exclusively that determines what Tradition is:
"It is the Authoritative Voice of the Catholic Church which determines what is to be accepted and rejected as Tradition." The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151
2. It's the RCC itself alone that determines the meaning of this Tradition that it itself alone chooses.
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the [Catholic] Church alone. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the bishop of Rome." Catholic Catechism # 85
3. This "Tradition" as the RCC alone has chooses and as the RCC itself alone interprets, is not accountable to God's Scriptures but is EQUAL and supplemental to it.
"The [Catholic] Church does not derive its certainty about truth from the holy Scriptures alone. But both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments." Catholic Catechism # 82
"Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium (the Bishops) of the [Catholic] Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other. Working together, they all contribute...." Catholic Catechism # 95
Realize, too, that this Holy Scripture which is equal to the Tradition as the RCC itself alone as chosen as it itself alone interprets, is....
"Scripture is written principally in the heart of the [Catholic] Church rather than in documents or records, for the [Catholic] Church carries in its Tradition the living memory... ' Catholic Catechism # 113
In Catholicism, there are 3 equal "streams" of revelation: Tradition (dogmas taught by Jesus and the Apostles, much of which the Holy Spirit chose not to include in Scripture), Scripture (not the words so much as the meaning that the RCC alone knows) and Leadership of the singular, individual RCC. These "three legs of the stool" or "three streams" flow into ONE "river" - which is the Truth and is both the source and norm for all Christian truth. The 3 are fully interconnected, so that what is in one MUST be in all 3 (even if by pure implication that only the RCC can "see") since all are divine revelation. So if the Magisterium said something in 1904, that MUST be taught in Scripture since all 3 stools agree with each other.
This fundamental concept of "hidden dogmas" is key to the Catholic understanding of Tradition. It is typically called "Apostolic Tradition" because the claim is that the Apostles all taught these dogmas. The RCC is honest to admit there is zero evidence for this, the claim is not at all historical, but is a belief.
And it must be appreciated that all 3 legs of the stool or 3 streams are - essentially - the RCC itself. It's the anti-thesis of ecumenical.
Protestant Definition:
Anglicans, Lutherans, and sometimes Methodist and Reformed Protestants speak of "tradition" in several way:
1. It refers to the historic, ecumenical, consensus of God's people (the oikos of God), especially (but not exclusively) regarding the interpretation and application of Scriptures. This if often held in very high esteem, but at least a tad under God's written words, the Bible (as indeed Protestants tend to regard the words of men as under the Word of God). Examples would be the Apostles and Nicene Creeds. Lutherans hold that the Scriptures were not given to any individual person or denomination... or even generation... but to US, the whole church, the whole people of God, and so Tradition (capitol T) is ecumenical and historic.
2. The historic, consensus and generally official teachings of the specific theological community. In Lutheranism, we call this type of Tradition, "Confessions." This is not ecumenical since it may be distinctive to a faith community (such as Lutheran or Reformed or Anglican). For example, the "Lutheran Confessions" (the Book of Concord), the Reformed Confessions. The Lutheran Book of Concord (unchanged since 1580 - with no additions, revisions, developments or expansions) begins with the 3 ecumenical creeds - in a category unto themselves, then addresses the Lutheran Confessions.
3. The historic and broadly accepted customs and practices of God's people - which may be ecumenical or perhaps more limited in terms of time or community. Especially worshipping on Sundays is an example of this kind of tradition (usually a lower case "t" is used here).
- Josiah
.
Tradition:
Catholic Definition:
1. It's the RCC alone and exclusively that determines what Tradition is:
"It is the Authoritative Voice of the Catholic Church which determines what is to be accepted and rejected as Tradition." The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151
2. It's the RCC itself alone that determines the meaning of this Tradition that it itself alone chooses.
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the [Catholic] Church alone. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the bishop of Rome." Catholic Catechism # 85
3. This "Tradition" as the RCC alone has chooses and as the RCC itself alone interprets, is not accountable to God's Scriptures but is EQUAL and supplemental to it.
"The [Catholic] Church does not derive its certainty about truth from the holy Scriptures alone. But both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments." Catholic Catechism # 82
"Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium (the Bishops) of the [Catholic] Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other. Working together, they all contribute...." Catholic Catechism # 95
Realize, too, that this Holy Scripture which is equal to the Tradition as the RCC itself alone as chosen as it itself alone interprets, is....
"Scripture is written principally in the heart of the [Catholic] Church rather than in documents or records, for the [Catholic] Church carries in its Tradition the living memory... ' Catholic Catechism # 113
In Catholicism, there are 3 equal "streams" of revelation: Tradition (dogmas taught by Jesus and the Apostles, much of which the Holy Spirit chose not to include in Scripture), Scripture (not the words so much as the meaning that the RCC alone knows) and Leadership of the singular, individual RCC. These "three legs of the stool" or "three streams" flow into ONE "river" - which is the Truth and is both the source and norm for all Christian truth. The 3 are fully interconnected, so that what is in one MUST be in all 3 (even if by pure implication that only the RCC can "see") since all are divine revelation. So if the Magisterium said something in 1904, that MUST be taught in Scripture since all 3 stools agree with each other.
This fundamental concept of "hidden dogmas" is key to the Catholic understanding of Tradition. It is typically called "Apostolic Tradition" because the claim is that the Apostles all taught these dogmas. The RCC is honest to admit there is zero evidence for this, the claim is not at all historical, but is a belief.
And it must be appreciated that all 3 legs of the stool or 3 streams are - essentially - the RCC itself. It's the anti-thesis of ecumenical.
Protestant Definition:
Anglicans, Lutherans, and sometimes Methodist and Reformed Protestants speak of "tradition" in several way:
1. It refers to the historic, ecumenical, consensus of God's people (the oikos of God), especially (but not exclusively) regarding the interpretation and application of Scriptures. This if often held in very high esteem, but at least a tad under God's written words, the Bible (as indeed Protestants tend to regard the words of men as under the Word of God). Examples would be the Apostles and Nicene Creeds. Lutherans hold that the Scriptures were not given to any individual person or denomination... or even generation... but to US, the whole church, the whole people of God, and so Tradition (capitol T) is ecumenical and historic.
2. The historic, consensus and generally official teachings of the specific theological community. In Lutheranism, we call this type of Tradition, "Confessions." This is not ecumenical since it may be distinctive to a faith community (such as Lutheran or Reformed or Anglican). For example, the "Lutheran Confessions" (the Book of Concord), the Reformed Confessions. The Lutheran Book of Concord (unchanged since 1580 - with no additions, revisions, developments or expansions) begins with the 3 ecumenical creeds - in a category unto themselves, then addresses the Lutheran Confessions.
3. The historic and broadly accepted customs and practices of God's people - which may be ecumenical or perhaps more limited in terms of time or community. Especially worshipping on Sundays is an example of this kind of tradition (usually a lower case "t" is used here).
- Josiah
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MennoSota
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Do you note that only those the Father has given to Jesus will repent?
Arsenios
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The issue you are failing to engage is the CALL of God to Repentance...
And MAN's response to that Call of God...
You have consistently evaded this issue for a long time now here...
You are teaching the FALSE doctrine that FALLEN man is UTTERLY DEAD...
God calls man to repentance - That's Book...
Man's response to that CALL is crucial to his Salvation BY God Alone...
You cannot re-frame the issue to avoid the Bible...
God is the only Savior...
Man must respond to God's CALL to repentance with repentance...
Those who do will be Saved by God...
Those who do not will not...
Arsenios
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No, I'm not.
You are failing to acknowledge that Jesus is the Savior and thus does the saving. That the dead, atheistic enemy of God does NOT save self by the performance of a good work.
Arsenios said:
A flat out contradiction.
If the unregenerate, dead, atheist performs the good work by himself that results in his justification - then he is not saved by God alone. God is simply RESPONDING justly according to the good work performed by the dead enemy of God.
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Arsenios
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God CALLS sinners to repentance...
Please provide the text you are referencing...
MANY are called, FEW are CHOSEN...
Your text is referring to the latter...
To the Apostles...
Mat 20:16
So the last shall be first,
and the first last:
for many be called,
but few chosen.
Arsenios
Arsenios
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This entire post of yours here is exactly that failure to engage the issue of God's Call to Repentance...
See? You are calling that Holy Call of God inefficacious...
Insisting un-Biblically that Salvation comes prior to that Calling...
That you have to be saved in order to repent...
When it is unsaved sinners, and not the Righteous, that God CALLS to REPENTANCE...
Arsenios
Arsenios
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Cork-blowing cut and paste repetition is not helpful...
Engaging the topic Biblically IS helpful...
Arsenios
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Without the Holy Spirit, it is.
"Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God"
See John 6:65
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 12:3
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:1
Romans 8:7
Consider Lazarus. Did dead Lazarus (stinking in the tomb) raise himself by hearing the call of Jesus and walking out of that tomb in obedience? Or did Jesus perform a miracle, giving Lazarus life and thus he walked out of the tomb? Is the Bible wrong to say Jesus gave him life? Are we wrong in saying Jesus performed a miracle when in reality Lazarus simply obeyed the call of Jesus?
Pelagianism is a heresy. But at least that heresy says we respond ONLY because God FIRST comes to us and empowers it.... You claim to hold that God alone saves... but you have an entirely absent God, who does NOTHING but calls, everything depending on the dead one "hearing" it and performing a good work that God simply (in His justice) rewards accordingly. In your soteriology, God has nothing to do with saving, just ordering dead people to do what they can't and won't do without Him.
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Without the Holy Spirit, it is.
"Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God"
John 6:65
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 12:3
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:1
Romans 8:7
Hebrews 11:6
Consider Lazarus. Did dead Lazarus (stinking in the tomb) raise himself by hearing the call of Jesus and walking out of that tomb in obedience? Or did Jesus perform a miracle, giving Lazarus life and thus he walked out of the tomb? Is the Bible wrong to say Jesus gave him life? Are we wrong in saying Jesus performed a miracle when in reality Lazarus simply obeyed the call of Jesus?
Pelagianism is a heresy. But at least that heresy says we respond ONLY because God FIRST comes to us and empowers it.... You claim to hold that God alone saves... but you have an entirely absent God, who does NOTHING but calls, everything depending on the dead one "hearing" it and performing a good work that God simply (in His justice) rewards accordingly. In your soteriology, God has nothing to do with saving, just ordering dead people to do what they can't and won't do without Him.
.
Arsenios
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Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
"See? You are calling that Holy Call of God inefficacious..."
IF You are CALLED by God to repentance,
THEN You are able to repent...
You are arguing that
IF you are CALLED by God to repentance,
THEN you CANNOT repent
UNLESS you are enabled by the Holy Spirit to repent...
HENCE you are arguing that the CALL of God TO REPENTANCE is INEFFICACIOUS for man's repentance...
Because the Call of God is not enough - He still needs the Holy Spirit...
Never mind that BOTH are GOD!
I am arguing that
IF God CALLS you to repentance...
THEN you CAN repent...
The rest is blather...
Arsenios
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Arsenios
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Before or after he got sick and died?
Ah yes, after he died - Another rabbit trail...
John the Baptist did not preach at the graves,
But in the wilderness...
Nor did Christ preach to the dead in the tombs...
He discipled those not yet in the grave...
How many times have you preached to the tombstones?
Apples and Buffalo Chips I say!
Total blather...
Recalling a man back to his corpse is an entirely different matter from calling a sinner to repentance...
A straw man rabbit hole into blackness...
A very silly so-called argument...
Arsenios
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MennoSota
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What is God's kindness that leads (directs) a person to repentance? (Notice God is the cause agent)
The kindness is God making a person spiritually alive in Christ.
The straw man is your insistence that a human must first conjure up their own willful repentance before God can make them spiritually alive in Christ. You attempt to hamstring God.
English Standard Version Romans 2:3-5
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
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What an illogical assumption... and of course, God flat out disagrees with your illogical assumption as the verses provel
Arsenios said:
1. How illogical.
2. God disagrees with you. See for example:
John 6:65
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 12:3
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:1
Romans 8:7
3. Please provide the Scriptures that teach, "If God commands the unregenerate to do anything, THEREFORE they all can totally do it all on their own, by their own ability and strength, without faith or the Holy Spirit or anything from God." Where is that verse? Please quote it.
4. I disagree with you that dead, atheistic enemies of God save themselves by performing the good work of repentance, making self the Savior and making Jesus irrelevant. I hold that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus does the saving because we need SAVING. If we all can totally save ourselves by our own ability and own works, then God's mercy, grace, incarnation, Savior, the Cross, the Resurrection - they are all irrelevant. Indeed, God is irrelvant. What you express is a godless, pure legalistic issue of self obeying, performing a good work, all on their own and with their own ability and will. That's worse than most of the false religions of the world.
5. Your point that self is the one responsible for the salvation of self, and that each dead self does this WITHOUT anything from God - no mercy, no grace, no empowering, no Holy Spirit, no faith - just the dead one being OBEDENT to a legal call. That's even worse than the heresy of Pelagianism. It's even worse than the soteriology of Islam and Hinduism (which at least indicate that God empowers our obedience) - you have a godless soteriology, one entirely of the Law, all founded entirely on what SELF does (you don't even mention Jesus).
6. IF this "Tradition" of a soteriology void of God, void of Jesus, void of the Cross and Empty Tomb, void of the Holy Spirit, void of any Gospel, void of any mercy - PURE Law, with justifically entirely and wholly dependent on each dead atheist enemy of God performing a good work... if this is the "Tradition" of the EOC, then I could not disagree more. I find the soteriology of Islam and Judaism and Bhatki Hinduism to be closer to Christianity than that. And I note that what you are suggesting is perhaps why the RCC split off from you, what you are saying was loudly condemned by our Catholic teachers as pure heresy. At least the heretics argued that we respond to God with God's empowering, with the enabling of the Holy Spirit, you have a completely godless theology here: God just COMMANDS and the dead man just RESPONDS - all with nothing from God. No grace, no mercy, no Holy Spirit, no divine involvement or role at all. IF what you are conveying is the "Tradition" of the EOC, then I am horrified.
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Arsenios
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Arsenios
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Yes -
For you to say that
God commands us to do
that which we cannot do
is the apex of illogicality...
So you are kind of on a summit, I suppose...
I prefer a pile of fresh and smelly dung...
For myself...
Rather than your oh so exalted apex...
But here is another soft ball for you...
To crush it out of the park...
Nice and easy, so you can't miss...
I mean, I can show you,
And you can show yourself,
Tons of God's Commandments
That people were able to obey...
And indeed did obey...
But for you, here is an easy one:
Simply show me in the Bible
Just ONE Command
That God gave
That the person He gave it to
Was unable to obey
Until the Holy Spirit helped him out?
Just one, that's all - Just one time...
Anywhere in the whole of the Bible...
Nice and easy for you...
Just once...
Thank-you...
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Ah. So God calls all to be perfect. To be void of sin. To love all even as Christ loves. So, according to you, it is MANDATED that all can do that.... nothing from God needed, just His command. No mercy needed. No grace needed. No Cross needed. No resurrected needed. No Savior needed. Just God commanding and every unregenerate person DOING it. An entirely godless religion. If what you say is "logical" then Christ died in vain and He sent the Holy Spirit in vain - totally unnecessary. All self needs is self, fully able to do anything God calls on anyone to do.
See Galatians 2:21
Arsenios said:
Just a few things God has commanded:
Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."
John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) loved."
Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."
First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."
Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."
Here's what God says about people doing it and being able to do it:
Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."
Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."
First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"
Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."
Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."
First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."
See what these statements from God say about the ability of unregenerate folks without God:
John 6:65
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 12:3
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:1
Romans 8:7
Read Galatians 2:21
Your godless, Chrsitless, Saviorless religion is one I reject.
Please provide the Scriptures that teach, "If God commands the unregenerate to do anything, THEREFORE they all can totally do it all on their own, by their own ability and strength, without faith or the Holy Spirit or anything from God." Where is that verse? Please quote it.
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Arsenios
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Arsenios
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We are CALLED to repentance...
You argue God calls us in vain...
And needs a little help from God...
Logic did you say??
fwiw, Not all Called come...
Either to repentance or to perfecting...
Not because they cannot...
But because they will not...
Arsenios