Calvinism Vs Arminian

Josiah said:

What is the point of the "....Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (followed by two Scriptures that say nothing about the "not")?

Is it not to say there is also a predestination of the damned?

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I think it deliberately stops short of saying that BECAUSE Scripture stops short of saying that. One can read between the lines and draw logical arguments, but that is not the same as having God state something as a fact. God clearly states that SOME are chosen. The Bible is also clear that not all are destined to be saved (simply put, Scripture clearly teaches that there is a Hell and there are those who will suffer the “Second Death”).

If SOME are chosen, and not ALL are chosen, then SOME (be it may or few) are not chosen. That is as far as Scripture clearly teaches, so that is as far as the statement on Unconditional Election was willing to go. Some are chosen and some are not.

The Westminster Confession goes through the effort of using two different words to discuss God’s selection of the chosen and his non-selection of those not the chosen. It does this to avoid the appearance that God equally chooses to save some and God chooses to damn others as equal and opposite actions of God. If the Reformed Theologians of old believed that God equally chose the saved and the damned, they would have used the same word to say so.

If you are interested, the belief is that Total Depravity means that everyone is damned. God need do nothing to ‘encourage’ people to sin and go to Hell. In fact, even if God personally proclaimed the Gospel message in a Theophany (appearance of Jesus himself) to every person who ever lived and did nothing else, there would still be NO ONE who would accept God’s gift of forgiveness. Fallen man regards the things of God as foolishness and we are natural enemies of God. Therefore, rather than allow no one to be saved, God chose (before the foundation of the world) to draw (compel by force) some to Christ, to present to Christ “His sheep”, to remove their heart of stone (dead) and give those chosen “some” a new heart of flesh (living) ... a heart that is CAPABLE of choosing to accept the Gospel ... a heart that DESIRES to accept the Gospel and to please God.

Thus some are “chosen” for salvation, and others are simply “passed over” (God does nothing to hinder them, he just did not ‘choose’ them) and left to do as they please.

We Reformed do not ignore faith, Faith is a gift from God ... not an innate act of man.

Soli Deo gloria!

Since both Arminianism and Calvinism are protestant "isms" I do not have a "dog in this race" so fight on protestant brethren.

Andrew said:

lol this made me chuckle.
[emoji1]

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It makes me chuckle too.

:scared:

MoreCoffee said:

Since both Arminianism and Calvinism are protestant "isms" I do not have a "dog in this race" so fight on protestant brethren.

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The Roman church is smack dab in the center of synergism, which is also Arminianism. While the Roman church completely butchers the biblical teaching of grace, it fully embraces free will Arminian teaching. Your dog may be too stupid to know it is in a race, but being stupid doesn't exempt your dog from the race. :who me:

MennoSota said:

The Roman church is smack dab in the center of synergism, which is also Arminianism. While the Roman church completely butchers the biblical teaching of grace, it fully embraces free will Arminian teaching. Your dog may be too stupid to know it is in a race, but being stupid doesn't exempt your dog from the race. :who me:

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This kind of post is a good reason not to participate in this thread.

MoreCoffee said:

This kind of post is a good reason not to participate in this thread.

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MC, you can try to distance your denomination from this issue, but the truth is, your denomination is neck deep in a theology that teaches man as the enabler of his own salvation.

atpollard said:

Josiah said:

What is the point of the "....Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not" (followed by two Scriptures that say nothing about the "not")?

Is it not to say there is also a predestination of the damned?


.

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I think it deliberately stops short of saying that BECAUSE Scripture stops short of saying that.

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You missed this part, ""....Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not" (followed by two Scriptures that say nothing about the "not")

The "U" is the dogma that God is the cause of salvation (which traditional, biblical Christianity agrees with.... it's not the distinctive point) but ALSO, in addition to that, the cause of damnation. There is a predestination of ALL people.... of the saved "and ALSO, additionally, of the others, the unsaved, those that end up in hell." ALSO. Extreme Calvinists tend to call these the "reprobate." So, it's not ONLY predestination of the saved (again, not the distinctive) but ALSO of the damned.... it's predestination of ALL, of EVERYONE, of the few that end up in heaven and also of most that end up in hell. Predestination = to cause, to make happen. Note how the Confession you quoted makes no distinction.

No, Calvinism does NOT stop with the saved being elect. It does not stop with what the Bible states or with what the Council of Orange states... it does not stop with "single" predestination but ALSO teaches predestination of the damned, the "reprobate" (thus what is commonly known as double predestination).

atpollard said:

God clearly states that SOME are chosen. The Bible is also clear that not all are destined to be saved (simply put, Scripture clearly teaches that there is a Hell and there are those who will suffer the “Second Death”). If SOME are chosen, and not ALL are chosen, then SOME (be it may or few) are not chosen. That is as far as Scripture clearly teaches. Some are chosen and some are not.

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Agreed.


Of course, as you've proven, extreme Calvinism doesn't stop there at all. There is that predestination of ALL..... that ALSO... that predestination of the reprobate... the predestination to hell.... double predestination.


Now, I realize, it has become popular of late for those who reject the "U" of TULIP to try to somehow embrace it while rejecting it, and this is at times done by saying that there is an active predestination and a passive predestination... that God causes some to go to heaven while only passively causes others to go to hell.... but of course, it's an oxymoron, the word means "to cause." It's a bit like saying "I caused the sun to rise this morning but it was not my will and I had nothing whatsoever to do with it." It seems to me that if a Calvinists agrees that predestination to hell is not biblical, then don't teach it, and rejoin historic, biblical Christianity (and as far as I can tell, virtually all Calvinists have done exactly that).

atpollard said:

Thus some are “chosen” for salvation, and others are simply “passed over”

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... then God does NOT predestine or elect or choose the "reprobate"....there is no ALSO.




.

Josiah said:

You missed this part, ""....Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not" (followed by two Scriptures that say nothing about the "not")

The "U" is the dogma that God is the cause of salvation (which traditional, biblical Christianity agrees with.... it's not the distinctive point) but ALSO, in addition to that, the cause of damnation. There is a predestination of ALL people.... of the saved "and ALSO, additionally, of the others, the unsaved, those that end up in hell." ALSO. Extreme Calvinists tend to call these the "reprobate." So, it's not ONLY predestination of the saved (again, not the distinctive) but ALSO of the damned.... it's predestination of ALL, of EVERYONE, of the few that end up in heaven and also of most that end up in hell. Predestination = to cause, to make happen. Note how the Confession you quoted makes no distinction.

No, Calvinism does NOT stop with the saved being elect. It does not stop with what the Bible states or with what the Council of Orange states... it does not stop with "single" predestination but ALSO teaches predestination of the damned, the "reprobate" (thus what is commonly known as double predestination).






Agreed.


Of course, as you've proven, extreme Calvinism doesn't stop there at all. There is that predestination of ALL..... that ALSO... that predestination of the reprobate... the predestination to hell.... double predestination.


Now, I realize, it has become popular of late for those who reject the "U" of TULIP to try to somehow embrace it while rejecting it, and this is at times done by saying that there is an active predestination and a passive predestination... that God causes some to go to heaven while only passively causes others to go to hell.... but of course, it's an oxymoron, the word means "to cause." It's a bit like saying "I caused the sun to rise this morning but it was not my will and I had nothing whatsoever to do with it." It seems to me that if a Calvinists agrees that predestination to hell is not biblical, then don't teach it, and rejoin historic, biblical Christianity (and as far as I can tell, virtually all Calvinists have done exactly that).






... then God does NOT predestine or elect or choose the "reprobate"....there is no ALSO.




.

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Where is the word "also" that you are referring to?

You wrote:

You missed this part, ""....Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not" (followed by two Scriptures that say nothing about the "not")

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If only some people are elected unto salvation (adoption), are all the others also elected unto salvation or are they not chosen? Is it an accidental oversight by God or a willful choice of God to not adopt (save) some?

MennoSota said:

Where is the word "also" that you are referring to?

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Atpollard's quote of the Westminster Confession. He posted it. Perhaps he didn't notice it.

The "U" is not the elect of the saved. It does NOT "stop where Scripture does" as he noted, it says more than "God predestined the saved." There's the whole Calvinists obsession with the "reprobate" and that God ALSO, ADDITIONALLY predestining them.... EVERYONE. It's commonly known as "DOUBLE predestination" - of BOTH the few going to heaven and the majority going to hell. ALSO.


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Josiah said:

Atpollard's quote of the Westminster Confession. He posted it. Perhaps he didn't notice it.

The "U" is not the elect of the saved. It does NOT "stop where Scripture does" as he noted, it says more than "God predestined the saved." There's the whole Calvinists obsession with the "reprobate" and that God ALSO, ADDITIONALLY predestining them.... EVERYONE. It's commonly known as "DOUBLE predestination" - of BOTH the few going to heaven and the majority going to hell. ALSO.


.

Click to expand...

If only some people are elected unto salvation (adoption), are all the others also elected unto salvation or are they not chosen? Is it an accidental oversight by God or a willful choice of God to not adopt (save) some?

Josiah said:

You missed this part, ""....Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not" (followed by two Scriptures that say nothing about the "not")

The "U" is the dogma that God is the cause of salvation (which traditional, biblical Christianity agrees with.... it's not the distinctive point) but ALSO, in addition to that, the cause of damnation. There is a predestination of ALL people.... of the saved "and ALSO, additionally, of the others, the unsaved, those that end up in hell." ALSO. Extreme Calvinists tend to call these the "reprobate." So, it's not ONLY predestination of the saved (again, not the distinctive) but ALSO of the damned.... it's predestination of ALL, of EVERYONE, of the few that end up in heaven and also of most that end up in hell. Predestination = to cause, to make happen. Note how the Confession you quoted makes no distinction.

No, Calvinism does NOT stop with the saved being elect. It does not stop with what the Bible states or with what the Council of Orange states... it does not stop with "single" predestination but ALSO teaches predestination of the damned, the "reprobate" (thus what is commonly known as double predestination).

Agreed.

Of course, as you've proven, extreme Calvinism doesn't stop there at all. There is that predestination of ALL..... that ALSO... that predestination of the reprobate... the predestination to hell.... double predestination.

Now, I realize, it has become popular of late for those who reject the "U" of TULIP to try to somehow embrace it while rejecting it, and this is at times done by saying that there is an active predestination and a passive predestination... that God causes some to go to heaven while only passively causes others to go to hell.... but of course, it's an oxymoron, the word means "to cause." It's a bit like saying "I caused the sun to rise this morning but it was not my will and I had nothing whatsoever to do with it." It seems to me that if a Calvinists agrees that predestination to hell is not biblical, then don't teach it, and rejoin historic, biblical Christianity (and as far as I can tell, virtually all Calvinists have done exactly that).

... then God does NOT predestine or elect or choose the "reprobate"....there is no ALSO.
.

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Is there any scripture that even suggests that someone not “chosen” can reach glorification?
You speak as if the fact that God has not choose them (which you have admitted scripture teaches that some are not chosen) has no impact on their eternal destiny.

[Rom 8:28-30 NIV] 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

atpollard said:

Is there any scripture that even suggests that someone not “chosen” can reach glorification?

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Have you chosen to not discuss the verses? You wanted to engage in a discussion of John 3 and Romans 8.... and I responded to all the points of your post.... but now you choose to not discuss it?

No one here has disputed Election of the Saved (what is commonly known as "single predestination"). That's what Scripture teaches, that's what the Council of Orange teaches, that's what the Catholic Church teaches (officially anyway) and what Lutherans and Anglicans teach. The "U" of TULIP embraces that but ADDS an "ALSO", it equally points out that the unsaved are chosen, elected, predestined too... this is for all people (commonly known as DOUBLE Predestination). That's the issue before us with the "U". Friend, your attempt to agree with us on SINGLE Predestination does nothing to substantiate DOUBLE Predestination.

atpollard said:

Rom 8:28-30 NIV 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

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Yup. We fully agree.

Now, where does it state that God hates most people, that God desires and causes most people to fry eternally in hell? Where does it state the "ALSO" of the Reformed Confessions, DOUBLE Predestination?

And where does it state that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED FEW (and thus, odds are, not you or me)?


??????????





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Josiah said:

Have you chosen to not discuss the verses? You wanted to engage in a discussion of John 3 and Romans 8.... and I responded to all the points of your post.... but now you choose to not discuss it?

No one here has disputed Election of the Saved (what is commonly known as "single predestination"). That's what Scripture teaches, that's what the Council of Orange teaches, that's what the Catholic Church teaches (officially anyway) and what Lutherans and Anglicans teach. The "U" of TULIP embraces that but ADDS an "ALSO", it equally points out that the unsaved are chosen, elected, predestined too... this is for all people (commonly known as DOUBLE Predestination). That's the issue before us with the "U". Friend, your attempt to agree with us on SINGLE Predestination does nothing to substantiate DOUBLE Predestination.





Yup. We fully agree.

Now, where does it state that God hates most people, that God desires and causes most people to fry eternally in hell? Where does it state the "ALSO" of the Reformed Confessions, DOUBLE Predestination?

And where does it state that Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED FEW (and thus, odds are, not you or me)?


??????????





.

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The straw man continues...

Canons of Dort
https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort