Sharing statements on Christian theology

Webster · May 28, 2019

psalms 91 said:
sigh, God allows us to choose either to accept Him or not very clear in scripture or else should we start ripping them out of the bible

I have to agree w/Psalms here; as long as I can remember, Revelation 3:20 was always clear to me on whether we had free will in becoming Christians or not...to quote:

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Bible Gateway - Rev. 3:20 KJV)

and that was that we, as individuals, have to make the decision on becoming a Christian, of accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour of our lives, of our own free will.

It can't be forced on you, it can't be predesignated towards certain people....either you accept Him of your free will or you reject Him of your own free will. Period, end of story.

MennoSota · May 29, 2019

Webster said:
I have to agree w/Psalms here; as long as I can remember, Revelation 3:20 was always clear to me on whether we had free will in becoming Christians or not...to quote:and that was that we, as individuals, have to make the decision on becoming a Christian, of accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour of our lives, of our own free will.

It can't be forced on you, it can't be predesignated towards certain people....either you accept Him of your free will or you reject Him of your own free will. Period, end of story.

Revelation 3:20 has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
Jesus is speaking to the church in Laodicea...to those who are already saved. He's knocking on Christians hearts and calling them to not be lukewarm.
Revelation 3:20 is a perfect example of a verse pulled completely out of its context and misused to imply something that is not being stated.

Revelation 3:14-22 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Asserting free will when it is never taught anywhere in the Bible is a precious trick that feeds human pride. Pride is the sin that tore down Lucifer and he loves it when humans claim free will over God.

Lamb · May 29, 2019

Webster said:
I have to agree w/Psalms here; as long as I can remember, Revelation 3:20 was always clear to me on whether we had free will in becoming Christians or not...to quote:and that was that we, as individuals, have to make the decision on becoming a Christian, of accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour of our lives, of our own free will.

It can't be forced on you, it can't be predesignated towards certain people....either you accept Him of your free will or you reject Him of your own free will. Period, end of story.

That verse isn't being said to non-believers so it's not saying that non-believers need to ask Jesus into their hearts. Nowhere is that stated in scripture.

FredVB · Jun 29, 2019

FredVB said:
That Yahweh chose any already from before the foundation of the world is useless information for identifying people to distinguish. The only basis we have to distinguish people is the evidence of faith with Christ as Lord that shows in how others live. They already show they are the elect. Others who are you cannot know. But Yahweh knows already that they will respond to his work of grace for their salvation. But that should make no difference in how we live, with faith with which we are saved in Christ, and we should seek having the gospel message made available to any who might listen to us.

It was by faith that Noah moved with godly fear, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith, Hebrews 11:7. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The account in Genesis still is about his deliverance, along with his immediate family of his house, from the catastrophic destruction to the world that came with the global flood. The faith with which he is heir of righteousness is that with which we are saved, and it is with Christ's righteousness.

Yahweh's righteousness is always with perfect fairness.

MennoSota said:
Read Galatians 5 for distinguishing characteristics.

I looked at Galatians 5 (not at all the first time, I am not at all a new believer, and if your way of communicating really shows your age I have been reading the Bible around as long as you have been around, so I have looked at it many times). From that it is known that being circumcised as a Jew does not profit for salvation, the persistently ungodly will not come to everlasting life in God's kingdom of heaven, and the fruits of the Spirit of God will show, as they are supposed to, with believers' growth. It does nothing to change what I have said.

Josiah said:
I think "Fred" is right in from OUR perspective, there's no way to know who is and who is not "elect" in any objective and absolute way, BUT once they DO come to faith, we have THAT (although yeah, it COULD be we're dealing with one who only CLAIMS what he himself knows is not true). ONCE faith is present, we embrace that. Because Christ died for all, ANYONE who relies/trusts in that therefore benefits from it. But that's really the only way we can even guess who is and is not a Christian (well, Jesus' point that faith produces fruit plays into this too - but be careful, Buddhists can do good works, too - from OUR perspective although not God's).

The whole emphasis on the new covenant through Christ, in scriptures, is on essential faith, and being distinct with living in faith, and seeing others distinct with evidence of faith in Christ, to live in unity, not against one another. Though there is election, which there is disagreement among us to its meaning, it is not essential to know, when it is enough to know we who are in Christ are secure in Christ, we are not to distinguish between any but on the basis of this faith, who is elect does not matter beyond that for this, it is God's business. We are just to remain witnesses to any.

Good works in Christ are making up the spiritual fruit that should be produced showing this faith in Christ. Many among us should grow further to have such show more. Others who are not in Christ show some of it. But they lack showing godliness, which has devotion to giving attention to God's glory, and does not lack in love, compassion, or being truthful, going with what is right.

God's righteousness is not "fair" in the sense meant in the above, IMO. If it were, we'd all be in hell. His righteiousness IS fair in that it is in Christ, it is CHRIST'S righteousness that is the issue in justification. Thus the importance that we rely on the One on the Cross and not the one in the mirror; all our righteousness is "like filthy rags." From the position of what we DESERVE, that would be 100% going to hell. But God doesn't operate by the principle of works but grace. God is merciful to those who NEED it (no need to be to those who don't need it, lol).

Yahweh God is completely fair. God's love does not aim for having any perish, so Jesus Christ came for our being delivered with God's fair judgment falling on Jesus, which he took for us. It is those who will not turn to Jesus for that atonement in him who still face the fair judgment for themselves. And as God never lacked love, God never lacked fairness in judgment.

RichWh1 said:
The name Yahweh is found nowhere in the Scriptures

Please speak for the translation which is the version you are using. I suppose it has "the LORD" written in many places, but that is not appearing in the original writing of the scriptures. The name as it was given shown about 6990 times in the Bible in the Hebrew text, you can't say truthfully it was not said as "Yahweh". That is the most likely way it was said, and I know ancient Greek writing with the name that supports that pronunciation. I don't make issue of others' ways of saying it, though indeed there are some who do. But I won't just let some say the name was not there in scriptures. With my Bible this is shown, in Exodus 3:15,
God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations."

RichWh1 · Jun 30, 2019

FredVB said:
I looked at Galatians 5 (not at all the first time, I am not at all a new believer, and if your way of communicating really shows your age I have been reading the Bible around as long as you have been around, so I have looked at it many times). From that it is known that being circumcised as a Jew does not profit for salvation, the persistently ungodly will not come to everlasting life in God's kingdom of heaven, and the fruits of the Spirit of God will show, as they are supposed to, with believers' growth. It does nothing to change what I have said.

The whole emphasis on the new covenant through Christ, in scriptures, is on essential faith, and being distinct with living in faith, and seeing others distinct with evidence of faith in Christ, to live in unity, not against one another. Though there is election, which there is disagreement among us to its meaning, it is not essential to know, when it is enough to know we who are in Christ are secure in Christ, we are not to distinguish between any but on the basis of this faith, who is elect does not matter beyond that for this, it is God's business. We are just to remain witnesses to any.

Good works in Christ are making up the spiritual fruit that should be produced showing this faith in Christ. Many among us should grow further to have such show more. Others who are not in Christ show some of it. But they lack showing godliness, which has devotion to giving attention to God's glory, and does not lack in love, compassion, or being truthful, going with what is right.

Yahweh God is completely fair. God's love does not aim for having any perish, so Jesus Christ came for our being delivered with God's fair judgment falling on Jesus, which he took for us. It is those who will not turn to Jesus for that atonement in him who still face the fair judgment for themselves. And as God never lacked love, God never lacked fairness in judgment.

Please speak for the translation which is the version you are using. I suppose it has "the LORD" written in many places, but that is not appearing in the original writing of the scriptures. The name as it was given shown about 6990 times in the Bible in the Hebrew text, you can't say truthfully it was not said as "Yahweh". That is the most likely way it was said, and I know ancient Greek writing with the name that supports that pronunciation. I don't make issue of others' ways of saying it, though indeed there are some who do. But I won't just let some say the name was not there in scriptures. With my Bible this is shown, in Exodus 3:15,
God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations."

The name of God is not known; in fact Jewish people use the term Ha Shem (the name) where the tetragrammaton is written. There are four Hebrew letters Yod Heh Vav Heh and no vowel point present to determine the pronunciation.
Modern Jews when quoting Deut 6:4 (the Sh’ma) substitute the title Adonai for YHWH

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Michael · Jul 3, 2019

Of course man has free will; to choose to obey God or not. Scripture is undeniably clear on this. One example... when Israel was about to enter the Promised Land, we read -

“Every commandment which I command you today you must be careful to observe, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers. 2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not." - Deut 8:1-2

If God knew, what purpose for testing? God may even ordain one for a purpose, but they must choose to enter into it, or that purpose will be given to another.

Even the Man Jesus had to be tested and proven obedient and faithful, before God could make "Him Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36). Oh yes, friends, "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Heb 5:8-9)

Jesus had to choose. And we have to choose.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve... But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh 24:15)

Amen.

Lamb · Jul 3, 2019

Michael said:
Of course man has free will; to choose to obey God or not. Scripture is undeniably clear on this. One example... when Israel was about to enter the Promised Land, we read -

“Every commandment which I command you today you must be careful to observe, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers. 2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not." - Deut 8:1-2

If God knew, what purpose for testing? God may even ordain one for a purpose, but they must choose to enter into it, or that purpose will be given to another.

Even the Man Jesus had to be tested and proven obedient and faithful, before God could make "Him Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36). Oh yes, friends, "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Heb 5:8-9)

Jesus had to choose. And we have to choose.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve... But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh 24:15)

Amen.

Those verses are for people who already believe. We cannot choose God without God already giving us faith to believe in Him. After that we can choose to live our lives as Christians.

Josiah · Jul 3, 2019

Michael said:
Of course man has free will; to choose to obey God or not. Scripture is undeniably clear on this. One example... when Israel was about to enter the Promised Land, we read -

“Every commandment which I command you today you must be careful to observe, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers. 2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not." - Deut 8:1-2

If God knew, what purpose for testing? God may even ordain one for a purpose, but they must choose to enter into it, or that purpose will be given to another.

Even the Man Jesus had to be tested and proven obedient and faithful, before God could make "Him Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36). Oh yes, friends, "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Heb 5:8-9)

Jesus had to choose. And we have to choose.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve... But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh 24:15)

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]

.... but we cannot choose to come to spiritual life (or even physical life), we cannot choose to give ourselves faith, we cannot choose to give ourselves the Holy Spirit, we cannot choose to give self salvation. All these are the sole work/accomplishment of God alone, all these are "the free gift of God."

Sure, we have free will whether we put cream in our coffee or go to bed at 10:00 or 11:00, whether we have a pet or not, whether we vote for Democrats or Republicans, whether we marry or not. And yes, the CHRISTIAN can choose to follow God or not. We have free will in most other things, but not in justification.

Michael, this video is almost 10 minutes long and thus very few will view it, but I encourage you to do so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9fUATwm3iU

Blessings!

- Josiah

.

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Josiah · Jul 3, 2019

[MENTION=662]FredVB[/MENTION]

FredVB said:
There is a problem when there is different understanding of terms, such as with foreknow and with predestine. With speaking English you are not aware of two different words of different meaning both translated with the English word know. One is about knowing facts. The other word with very different meaning, applies to knowing someone personally, which is the case with this word. Yahweh already knows the persons who come to God through all Christ has done for it being possible, personally. The ones who would never come to Christ, are not ever known that way, personally. And what is predestined? It is just that, for those already known personally, they are predestined to be like the image of Christ. That is the promise in the predestination actually mentioned. There isn't mention of being predestined to be saved. Those that Yahweh knows already personally, that is, they come to Christ and are saved that way, and are known personally, are those that Yahweh predestines to be in the image of Christ.

"Foreknow" = to know something ahead of time. "The sun will rise tomorrow" is foreknowledge (although only God has perfect foreknowledge). Of course, I will do NOTHING to bring about the reality of the sun rising, but I am pretty confident that it WILL happen;.

"Predestine" -= to cause something to happen. "God will make the sun rise tomorrow."

These are precise terms (in English and in koine Greek). They are NOT interchangable, they are very different things.

No, it is not possible for predestination to be in view of foreknowledge, since the event will not happen if it is not predestined since it's not possible to know something that isn't going to happen. If God is going to give Bob the "free gift of God" then YES God foreknows that Bob will have faith but this is because God will cause such. It is illogical to argue that God will give faith because Bob will come to faith. Is it possible to have foreknowledge without predestination? Yes ("I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but I won't cause it to rise"). But it is not possible for predestination to be in view of foreknowledge ("God will cause the sun to rise tomorrow because He knows it will rise anyway").

Friend, when we delete a key word in so many verses.... and replace it with a different word that has a (radically) different meaning, then we are simply changing what God says (perhaps to make God agree with self rather than the other way around)?

Thank you.

- Josiah

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Josiah · Jul 3, 2019

JUSTIFICATION (the coming to spiritual life, the gaining of faith in Christ, the coming of the Holy Spirit, the changed relationship to God)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9fUATwm3iU

Our human nature wants to embrace Narcissism, wants to pat self on the back, wants to credit self with the ultimate goal: Heaven. IMO, the Devil encourages this; in fact, I think this is the chief mission of Satan.

People WANT to claim, "I'm going to heaven because I..... I..... I..... I..... I..... " The real kingpin here, the final reason is ME. Of course, every time we say "I" we are denying Jesus, we are making Jesus smaller and self bigger, we are looking away from the Cross and pointing the one in the mirror, we are patting self on the back. Our sinful nature loves this. Our Narcissism is fed by this. Even Christians can FALL into this.

This (rather natural) tendency has some unavoidable consequences: 1) It feeds our Narcissism and Phariseeism; it makes little Pharisees out of us. "Oh, what a good boy am I!" "How pleased God is with ME" OR 2) "A terror of the conscience" (as Luther put it), because in those rare honest moments, we realize we are not so great and maybe we didn't surrender enough, maybe we didn't absolutely choose, maybe the one we see in the mirror failed to do all required. In God we can trust, when that's replaced with self, well..... Whenever we find the "I.... I..... I..... I....." we tend to see one or both of these tragic things. And of course, no one loves this more than the devil.... because both undermine the Cross, the Christ.

Of course, once given "the free gift" of spiritual life, of faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit (Justification).... once we are adopted into His family and MADE His son or daughter.... THEN there's a whole other subject: growing, maturing, reflecting our Father and His love, becoming more Christ-like. THAT is "synergistic" (cooperative), a matter of God calling and empowering - and our responding (variantly). But we need to be clear in the distinction: Are we talking about who GIVES life, faith the Holy Spirit OR the response, the consequence, the result of that?

Blessings....

- Josiah

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Webster · Jul 3, 2019

MennoSota said:
I have read the entire Bible. I don't find free-will taught anywhere.
God tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Since no one can save themselves, God chooses whom He wills to save. Do you think God is evil for saving some and not all?
Do you wish that God had dropped the gift of salvation on a main Street and those smart enough or lucky enough to unwrap the gift would be saved while all who walked past just died?
When you give a gift, do you tell the person that it is for them or do you just leave it on the sidewalk and hope they find it? Are you an evil person because you give a gift to someone you have chosen rather than giving your entire country a gift they are required to run around and find? Don't you play favorites when you give a gift? Not everyone gets a gift from you...do they?
Of course I know I wont change your mind since I know you are wrong so is this just for the sake of argument?

I gotta' disagree with you there, MennaSota. Yes, the words free will are not in the Bible; you're right about that....yet, the gift of salvation, brother, is something that is available to all of us. Thing is, you have to take that first step and acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour; its' not something that can be forced on you or something you're made to do; you have to do so of your own free will and it is the greatest gift in this world. It simply is.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If that's not a sign of free will for a Christian, what is? I know I'm relatively new to being a Christian and all, but every time I read that verse, it says to me that the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ is a gift, MennoSota, that we have to choose of own free will.

Period, full stop.

Josiah · Jul 3, 2019

[MENTION=881]Webster[/MENTION]

Webster said:
.yet, the gift of salvation, brother, is something that is available to all of us. Thing is, you have to take that first step and acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour;

If it's a gift, then it's GIVEN - not stolen, not earned.

Friend, there is nothing remotely in Scripture that teaches that DEAD, unregenerate, fallen people - VOID of God, VOID of life, VOID of faith, VOID of the Holy Spirit - enemies of God who fight against Him - that they WANT or ASK God for anything. There's NOTHING in Scripture that says the dead can give themselves physical life, much less spiritual life.

I recommend you spend 10 minutes and consider all the Scriptures he shares:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9fUATwm3iU

its' not something that can be forced on you or something you're made to do

When you were given physical life (say 9 months before you were born) did God FORCE this on you? Or did He - in love - GIVE it to you? Can you see the difference?

it is the greatest gift in this world. It simply is.

I agree. But if you earned it by doing "x, y, z" .... by jumping through some hoops.... then it's not a gift at all, is it?

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it?

Now... again.... once saved/justified.... once GIVEN life, faith, the Holy Spirit (Justification).... one MADE His own.... THEN we have a whole other situation, THEN we are talking about responding to the gift, using the gift... THEN we are talking about maturing, growing, reflecting..... THEN we have a synergistic/cooperative/OUR will situation. But it's important to not confuse the two. See my posts to you and Fred above.

Blessings!

- Josiah

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MennoSota · Jul 3, 2019

Webster said:
I gotta' disagree with you there, MennaSota. Yes, the words free will are not in the Bible; you're right about that....yet, the gift of salvation, brother, is something that is available to all of us. Thing is, you have to take that first step and acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour; its' not something that can be forced on you or something you're made to do; you have to do so of your own free will and it is the greatest gift in this world. It simply is.
If that's not a sign of free will for a Christian, what is? I know I'm relatively new to being a Christian and all, but every time I read that verse, it says to me that the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ is a gift, MennoSota, that we have to choose of own free will.

Period, full stop.

John 3:16
Webster...who will believe? Will anyone or anybody believe?
Jesus answers that...

John 10:14-18,25-30 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

The vast number of passages telling us that God chooses, God elects and God predestines dwarfs the small number of verses, taken out of context, on free-will. I can only tell you to read your Bible and see how God chooses and elects by grace from Genesis through Revelation. God does not change, yet humans (Christians) will do everything they can to try wrestle control from God, imagining that if they didn't have control, God would be a tyrant. What a lie from hell that imagination is. Many compassionate Christians belittle their Savior by demanding that they take credit for saving themselves by their smart decision to pick God rather than exult the name of God that he descended to them and saved them out of the pit in which they were damned to die without His help.

psalms 91 · Jul 3, 2019

MennoSota said:
John 3:16
Webster...who will believe? Will anyone or anybody believe?
Jesus answers that...

John 10:14-18,25-30 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

The vast number of passages telling us that God chooses, God elects and God predestines dwarfs the small number of verses, taken out of context, on free-will. I can only tell you to read your Bible and see how God chooses and elects by grace from Genesis through Revelation. God does not change, yet humans (Christians) will do everything they can to try wrestle control from God, imagining that if they didn't have control, God would be a tyrant. What a lie from hell that imagination is. Many compassionate Christians belittle their Savior by demanding that they take credit for saving themselves by their smart decision to pick God rather than exult the name of God that he descended to them and saved them out of the pit in which they were damned to die without His help.

Hmmm no free will huh then why does He stand at the door and knock and why is it Gods will that all be saved yet they are not if there is no free will? Your theology has a few problems

MennoSota · Jul 3, 2019

psalms 91 said:
Hmmm no free will huh then why does He stand at the door and knock and why is it Gods will that all be saved yet they are not if there is no free will? Your theology has a few problems

Your quote perfectly shows my example of verses taken out of context that have nothing to do with salvation.

Revelation 3:14,19-22 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Notice that Jesus is addressing Christians...not the unsaved. He is calling the church to be vigilant and let let him in.
Thank you Ps91 for providing a perfect example of a verse ripped out of context in order to create a dogma not stated in scripture.
It seems your theology has a massive problem...it can't be found in scripture.
Now, please argue against the vast number of verses and passages where God tells you that He chose you, elected you and predestined you to be saved by his grace alone.

psalms 91 · Jul 3, 2019

MennoSota said:
Your quote perfectly shows my example of verses taken out of context that have nothing to do with salvation.

Notice that Jesus is addressing Christians...not the unsaved. He is calling the church to be vigilant and let let him in.
Thank you Ps91 for providing a perfect example of a verse ripped out of context in order to create a dogma not stated in scripture.
It seems your theology has a massive problem...it can't be found in scripture.
Now, please argue against the vast number of verses and passages where God tells you that He chose you, elected you and predestined you to be saved by his grace alone.

Funny, I thought as Christians that Christ was already in us and not on the outside knocking to come in

MennoSota · Jul 3, 2019

psalms 91 said:
Funny, I thought as Christians that Christ was already in us and not on the outside knocking to come in

That's because you think Jesus wrote to the godless at Laodicea rather than the church.
Do you think you don't try to hide areas in your life from God as a Christian, Ps91? Does God not knock on the door of your sin-filled conscience and request entrance so he might sanctify you? Do you think God cannot sanctify you without your permission?
Ps91, I encourage you to read your Bible more often and toss out the preconceptions your pentacostal church has taught you.

psalms 91 · Jul 4, 2019

MennoSota said:
That's because you think Jesus wrote to the godless at Laodicea rather than the church.
Do you think you don't try to hide areas in your life from God as a Christian, Ps91? Does God not knock on the door of your sin-filled conscience and request entrance so he might sanctify you? Do you think God cannot sanctify you without your permission?
Ps91, I encourage you to read your Bible more often and toss out the preconceptions your pentacostal church has taught you.

Interesting, never looked at it that way but doesnt God already know everything including the hidden sins?

MennoSota · Jul 4, 2019

psalms 91 said:
Interesting, never looked at it that way but doesnt God already know everything including the hidden sins?

Certainly God knows. The Holy Spirit still speaks to our conscious as we fight. Like Jacob's fight with God, we wrestle against God and we try to prevail. God let's us wrestle, but ultimately he can touch our hip at anytime and show us he can easily win if he wishes.
In Revelation 3, Jesus is telling the Laodicean churches that he is knocking and waiting for them to open the door. But, make no mistake, he can bust that door down if necessary, as he shows with some of the other churches he addresses.

FredVB · Aug 27, 2019

RichWh1 said:
The name of God is not known; in fact Jewish people use the term Ha Shem (the name) where the tetragrammaton is written. There are four Hebrew letters Yod Heh Vav Heh and no vowel point present to determine the pronunciation.
Modern Jews when quoting Deut 6:4 (the Sh’ma) substitute the title Adonai for YHWH .

That doesn't matter. Do you think God didn't know what would happen, and people would say this for saying they would not speak his name, when he said, "You should tell them this, and this is my name, to be remembered in all generations"? And the way it was said is preserved, as there was ancient Greek writing with their way of saying it corresponding to the Hebrew pronunciation. It would sound like "Yahweh".

Josiah said:
[MENTION=662]FredVB[/MENTION]

"Foreknow" = to know something ahead of time. "The sun will rise tomorrow" is foreknowledge (although only God has perfect foreknowledge). Of course, I will do NOTHING to bring about the reality of the sun rising, but I am pretty confident that it WILL happen;.

"Predestine" -= to cause something to happen. "God will make the sun rise tomorrow."

These are precise terms (in English and in koine Greek). They are NOT interchangable, they are very different things.

No, it is not possible for predestination to be in view of foreknowledge, since the event will not happen if it is not predestined since it's not possible to know something that isn't going to happen. If God is going to give Bob the "free gift of God" then YES God foreknows that Bob will have faith but this is because God will cause such. It is illogical to argue that God will give faith because Bob will come to faith. Is it possible to have foreknowledge without predestination? Yes ("I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but I won't cause it to rise"). But it is not possible for predestination to be in view of foreknowledge ("God will cause the sun to rise tomorrow because He knows it will rise anyway").

Friend, when we delete a key word in so many verses.... and replace it with a different word that has a (radically) different meaning, then we are simply changing what God says (perhaps to make God agree with self rather than the other way around)?

I will study precise meanings, rather than accept being told what they are. I believe any of us should do that. About "foreknowledge",

προγινώσκω proginōskō

From*πρό*and γινώσκω*

γινώσκω ginōskō

I can speak more than english. English has one word "know" that is applied to different things, and so have actually different meanings, that in such other languages have different terms for those meanings.

In the Greek, this word ginōskō carries the idea of knowledge grounded in personal experience. It is to know and to experience, and that means to understand. In the Jewish religious sense of the day, it was used to describe sexual relations between a man and a woman, as in Adam knew Eve. Ginōskō, therefore, is an intimate knowledge of a person or thing.

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