Sharing statements on Christian theology

psalms 91 said:

Read John 3:16 and so many other passages, by the way are you claiming that God plays favorites and not everyone has the opportunity for salvation?

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Like it or not, that does seem to be the testimony of Holy Scripture.

psalms 91 said:

Read John 3:16 and so many other passages, by the way are you claiming that God plays favorites and not everyone has the opportunity for salvation? If so you are really going against scripture. Of course I know I wont change your mind and you definitely wont change mine since I know you are wrong and I doubt anyone elses so is this just for the sake of argument?

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Please DO NOT join with John Calvin in looking at this BACKWARDS..... a twisting of Gospel into Law, comfort into terror.


The very biblical teaching of election simply (and ONLY) means that His children have always been the objective of His love and subject of His care - always. And ONE of the things that makes this love and care CERTAIN is that it is timeless, God so loved us even before we were born, before we were a twinkle in our daddy's eye, before we said or did or thought a thing.... Our position is not the result of our MERITING it but our HAVING it; it flows from God's heart and not our deeds, from God's love and not our merit. Thus.... even when we sin, even when we doubt, even when (like the Prodigal Son) we wander - God is always our Father, our loving Father....


Now, philosophically, one can twist that inside out and upside down and make it the 100% opposite of what it is - insisting that God gets off on seeing some fry in hell. But that's a total abuse and perversion of the truth.


Personal story: My Mom conceived 5 children. The oldest - a boy - was a problematic pregnancy but with medical care, all went okay. The second - a girl - was a much harder pregnancy and the docs gave this maybe a 50/50 chance and Mom spent some time in the hospital, but when she was born, all was okay. The next two - both boys - were terrible. Mom almost died - and they both did, just weeks before their birth, both from heart defects. Mom had to have a C-Section to remove two dead sons. Then it was me..... it was the worse of all the pregnancies.... and I had the some problem as my two (dead) older brothers. Odds given were less than 50/50. BUT if mom and I could live to a certain point, they could take me by C-Section and do an immediate emergency surgery and MAYBE I'd live..... My Mom and Dad and two (living) sibs both told me how they prayed for me..... how they LOVED me.... how they sang "Jesus songs" to me... how Mom prepared the nursery for me... how precious I was to them. And I wasn't even born yet.... and all I had was a heart defect, the same that killed two brothers. Later.... when I could be a jerk.... I remembered Mom's unconditional love for me, even before I was born.... and realized she still loved me and how my actions broke her heart. THAT'S THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION. Taught all over the Bible. ALWAYS to believers..... ALWAYS to His children.... ALWAYS to reassure and comfort and yes remind. Terrible how some twist it SO horribly, so totally, as to become the opposite of what it is. SOME of Calvin's followers did that. And SOME responded by throwing the teaching away, leaving us with nothing but uncertainty and a feeling that God only loves the perfect and nice and worthy and do-righters and those with no heart defects.



- Josiah (Okay now, hardly even a scar)




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Please DO NOT join with John Calvin in looking at this BACKWARDS..... a twisting of Gospel into Law, comfort into terror.

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John Calvin never did such a thing.
Reformed Thologians, including Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians (who Lutherans named Calvinists, a name that stuck) do not teach or believe such a thing.

A heretical sect called Hyper-Calvinists teach a form of extreme supralapsarianism that claims God is equally responsible for saving the saved and causing sinners to sin. This view is neither Orthodox, nor Reformed, nor Calvinist nor was it held by John Calvin himself.

(Just setting the record straight, again.)

FredVB said:

I have to wonder how old you really are. Is there maturity shown with this response? Must there be personal remarks brought in, and basis to say I or any will die in our sins? I wouldn't tell others they will die in their sins anyway without sharing the way from God's grace to have deliverance from that.

To be clear, nothing I communicated involved my ego. I clearly communicated what is said in the third chapter of the second epistle from Peter.

If there would only be that kind of communication in return, it would be better to not continue with dialogue any further. If such a way of communicating was used before by any, how do they last in these forums with that, I would wonder.



Though there is slight distinction in meaning, what was said applies to justification too. Jesus preached repentance with which there is justification, such as in Luke 18:14. There is response that must happen where God said to choose, even where it was to those among whom were many who perished. The choice is from response to God.



It is the gospel statement to repent, as has been pointed out. I actually don't know how any are missing that. And there isn't basis to say God does not provide for that to some, even if because they never sought God ever before.

Those that are elected, which means those who are chosen, are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That does not mean that Yahweh does not choose those who respond with repenting, that would be added meaning and it is not biblical meaning with basis.

That doesn't seem like a good perspective of the history of Christians. Christians in general up to the sixteenth century did not have Bibles they studied themselves.



This makes the point that I speak for. "Any" means any. The context is saying this is why God is waiting this long time, not meaning it is with inaction, but when God's grace is enough to bring in all that ever do respond and are justified (which actually means being in Christ who bore everything that we live in Christ's righteousness).

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God is patiently waiting until all the elect are saved. Then...the Day of the Lord will happen.

MennoSota said:

I have, in the past shown the actual reasons why your position regarding 2 Peter 3 is so horribly incorrect.
I will not bother to feed your ego any further.
If you die in your sins
you can know you have been warned.

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That is very generous of you, Menno...
Freely have you received, so freely have you given!
Might we say you are giving what you have received?

I mean, if you have already argued it all before...
And no longer feel the need to repeat the argument...
What in the world are you here for??

Do you post just to tell people they are wrong?
That they are headed to eternal perdition?
So that you can taunt them saying:

"I told you so, I told you so, I told you so..." ???


Arsenios

Josiah said:

Personal story: My Mom conceived 5 children. The oldest - a boy - was a problematic pregnancy but with medical care, all went okay. The second - a girl - was a much harder pregnancy and the docs gave this maybe a 50/50 chance and Mom spent some time in the hospital, but when she was born, all was okay. The next two - both boys - were terrible. Mom almost died - and they both did, just weeks before their birth, both from heart defects. Mom had to have a C-Section to remove two dead sons. Then it was me..... it was the worse of all the pregnancies.... and I had the some problem as my two (dead) older brothers. Odds given were less than 50/50. BUT if mom and I could live to a certain point, they could take me by C-Section and do an immediate emergency surgery and MAYBE I'd live..... My Mom and Dad and two (living) sibs both told me how they prayed for me..... how they LOVED me.... how they sang "Jesus songs" to me... how Mom prepared the nursery for me... how precious I was to them. And I wasn't even born yet.... and all I had was a heart defect, the same that killed two brothers. Later.... when I could be a jerk.... I remembered Mom's unconditional love for me, even before I was born.... and realized she still loved me and how my actions broke her heart.

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Wonderful story, Josiah - Thank-you...

THAT'S THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION.

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I would call it the Doctrine of Love and Intercession...

Taught all over the Bible. ALWAYS to believers..... ALWAYS to His children.... ALWAYS to reassure and comfort and yes remind. Terrible how some twist it SO horribly, so totally, as to become the opposite of what it is. SOME of Calvin's followers did that. And SOME responded by throwing the teaching away, leaving us with nothing but uncertainty and a feeling that God only loves the perfect and nice and worthy and do-righters and those with no heart defects.

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God loves His creation, Josiah - The Kosmos...

"For in this manner did God Love the Kosmos, that He sent His Only-Begotten Son..."

God bless your Mom...


Arsenios





- Josiah (Okay now, hardly even a scar)




.[/QUOTE]

Arsenios said:

That is very generous of you, Menno...
Freely have you received, so freely have you given!
Might we say you are giving what you have received?

I mean, if you have already argued it all before...
And no longer feel the need to repeat the argument...
What in the world are you here for??

Do you post just to tell people they are wrong?
That they are headed to eternal perdition?
So that you can taunt them saying:

"I told you so, I told you so, I told you so..." ???


Arsenios

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1 Kings 18:25-40
Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many, and call upon the name of your god, but put no fire to it.” And they took the bull that was given them, and they prepared it and called upon the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, “O Baal, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped around the altar that they had made.
And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
And they cried aloud and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them. And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice. No one answered; no one paid attention. Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” And all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that had been thrown down. Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord came, saying, “Israel shall be your name,” and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two seahs of seed. And he put the wood in order and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood.” And he said, “Do it a second time.” And they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time.” And they did it a third time. And the water ran around the altar and filled the trench also with water. And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. Answer me, O Lord, answer me, that this people may know that you, O Lord, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.” Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.” And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.
[emoji41]

FredVB said:

That is right, it is what his post amounted to, thanks for noticing it and pointing that out. It is what makes his communication immature.



There is not argument against that at all. God is ever patient, that as many who will respond will come to repentance that with coming to Christ there is salvation, which is promised. You have a different understanding of "elect". There are no conditions given with this promise of salvation with these terms. God is perfect with love and compassion, even with justice, God does not desire and is not willing that any just perish, but had Jesus Christ bear the just penalty for all the sin of each and every who come to salvation they have in Christ.

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Indeed. Christ only died for the elect. And not one of the elect will perish.

FredVB said:

So we agree to what is not contested in discussion.

Yet who are the elect? Are they a group distinct from all the people that God chooses according to God's will to have perish? God is love, would God choose those according to God's own will, and in fair justice God does not compromise, to have perish forever when a group without merit is saved?

Though God is sovereign, God the Creator of all that came into existence made humans to be in God's image if they will be with their responsibility in this world. Humans were given choice, as they had even in the beginning when there was the Fall to rebellious sin. God told people, who God spoke to, to choose between things about which they were told. To do this, which God told them, they really had to be able to choose, that being ability that God gave them.

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The elect are those whom God has chosen by His Sovereignty. There is nothing humans can do to merit God's choosing. God has chosen before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1 if you are conflicted.

MennoSota said:

The elect are those whom God has chosen by His Sovereignty. There is nothing humans can do to merit God's choosing. God has chosen before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1 if you are conflicted.

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God created followers no doubt, and without question they are only known to him AND to his believers, these are called the Elect of God. Not unbelievers but BELIEVERS find this confusing and call it a 'class', not the case, a believer must know in his/her heart that he/she is exempt from eternal damnation and thus IS of the Elect of God.
Josiah for example sees this as a left and right separation of Gods acceptance due to FAVORITISM of certain PEOPLES... God has no respect for certain 'peoples', yes there is a GREAT and HONEST separation of Goats from Sheep, this is the comparison God gives us for 'unbelievers from believers' God WILL separate the left and right in that case, but there is no other class, no difference between Jew and Gentile, ALL nations and tongues have nothing to hinder them from salvation but unbelief.
God obviously knows this as he is Sovereign and knows all, there IS a hell so we do know that many will end up there.
So because we are NOT God nor sovereign ourselves we can tell NO difference of who gets into Heaven or Hell, this is scripture and thank God we don't have His omnipresence, we can judge our churches yes but never must we judge nonbelievers... This ensures us that what WE do as HIS workmanship is HIS will that we continue spreading the gospel and converting others.
For anyone to believe that we know for sure that any certain person will go to Hell or Heaven takes away ALL of Gods Sovereignty and makes us ever condemned.
Let GOD be God and handle the judgment of the world and let all believers stand with him.
There is no prejudice in Gods eye just those who reject him and those who accept him... God gave us revelation to tell us it IS finished!! We do our part as believers not letting our left hand know what the right hand is doing as we are His workmanship in this world.
No believer should doubt his or her belief, sustain until the day of redemption and you will be rewarded greatly.

FredVB said:

There is presumption in emphasizing the elect as a group regardless of whether they yet came to salvation or not. This is not what the scriptures communicate for anywhere. The communication for any distinction is only with recognizing those who came to salvation through essential faith in Christ to follow him, which is life-changing, in coming to God. This is important to Yahweh, and it should be important to us, not coming behind other ideas about God choosing.

We don't have good excuses for not having testimony for the gospel of Christ to others.

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Chosen from before the foundation of the world. God already has his elect marked out upon whom he will give his saving grace.
God has always done it this way. We read in Genesis 6:8
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Favor, here, means unmerited favor, which is what the word "grace" means. Noah was given grace by God and was thus favored, unlike the rest who received God's just judgment.
Noah, was elect, chosen by God, to receive God's gracious favor.

MennoSota said:

Chosen from before the foundation of the world. God already has his elect marked out upon whom he will give his saving grace.
God has always done it this way. We read in Genesis 6:8
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Favor, here, means unmerited favor, which is what the word "grace" means. Noah was given grace by God and was thus favored, unlike the rest who received God's just judgment.
Noah, was elect, chosen by God, to receive God's gracious favor.

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The same Noah who survived the global deluge .... Go on.....

FredVB said:

That Yahweh chose any already from before the foundation of the world is useless information for identifying people to distinguish. The only basis we have to distinguish people is the evidence of faith with Christ as Lord that shows in how others live. They already show they are the elect. Others who are you cannot know. But Yahweh knows already that they will respond to his work of grace for their salvation. But that should make no difference in how we live, with faith with which we are saved in Christ, and we should seek having the gospel message made available to any who might listen to us.

It was by faith that Noah moved with godly fear, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith, Hebrews 11:7. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The account in Genesis still is about his deliverance, along with his immediate family of his house, from the catastrophic destruction to the world that came with the global flood. The faith with which he is heir of righteousness is that with which we are saved, and it is with Christ's righteousness.

Yahweh's righteousness is always with perfect fairness.

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Read Galatians 5 for distinguishing characteristics.

FredVB said:

That Yahweh chose any already from before the foundation of the world is useless information for identifying people to distinguish. The only basis we have to distinguish people is the evidence of faith with Christ as Lord that shows in how others live. They already show they are the elect. Others who are you cannot know. But Yahweh knows already that they will respond to his work of grace for their salvation. But that should make no difference in how we live, with faith with which we are saved in Christ, and we should seek having the gospel message made available to any who might listen to us.

It was by faith that Noah moved with godly fear, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith, Hebrews 11:7. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The account in Genesis still is about his deliverance, along with his immediate family of his house, from the catastrophic destruction to the world that came with the global flood. The faith with which he is heir of righteousness is that with which we are saved, and it is with Christ's righteousness.

Yahweh's righteousness is always with perfect fairness.

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IMO, both you and MennoSota have some valid points here....


I think MennoSota is conveying that justification is monergistic (SOLELY God's work and gift) and that God "elected" (the word the Bible typically uses) to whom faith in this would be given. I think that's solidly biblical (and if we want to pursue that, I'd suggest a thread specifically on that). There he is on target. And I'd agree with him that foreknowledge (while also true) does not displace predestination: I know the sun will rise tomorrow (foreknowledge) but I won't CAUSE it to rise (predestination). Apples and oranges, although both are the case. Again, best pursued in another thread with MEGA doses of humility and embrace of mystery.

I think "Fred" is right in from OUR perspective, there's no way to know who is and who is not "elect" in any objective and absolute way, BUT once they DO come to faith, we have THAT (although yeah, it COULD be we're dealing with one who only CLAIMS what he himself knows is not true). ONCE faith is present, we embrace that. Because Christ died for all, ANYONE who relies/trusts in that therefore benefits from it. But that's really the only way we can even guess who is and is not a Christian (well, Jesus' point that faith produces fruit plays into this too - but be careful, Buddhists can do good works, too - from OUR perspective although not God's).


No. God's righteousness is not "fair" in the sense meant in the above, IMO. If it were, we'd all be in hell. His righteiousness IS fair in that it is in Christ, it is CHRIST'S righteousness that is the issue in justification. Thus the importance that we rely on the One on the Cross and not the one in the mirror; all our righteousness is "like filthy rags." From the position of what we DESERVE, that would be 100% going to hell. But God doesn't operate by the principle of works but grace. God is merciful to those who NEED it (no need to be to those who don't need it, lol).


- Josiah

The name Yahweh is found nowhere in the Scriptures


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Is “faith” all we have been elected to?
What if we have been elected to “discipleship” ... as in this:

[Luke 6:20-36 NASB] 20 And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He [began] to say, "Blessed [are] you [who are] poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 "Blessed [are] you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed [are] you who weep now, for you shall laugh. 22 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. 23 "Be glad in that day and leap [for joy,] for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. 24 "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. 25 "Woe to you who are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe [to you] who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. 26 "Woe [to you] when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way. 27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31 "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is [that] to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is [that] to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is [that] to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same [amount.] 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil [men.] 36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

We have been “elected” to suffer for Christ’s sake, and we have been elected to be poor in this world (how’s that for an anti-prosperity gospel) and we have been elected to be hated so we can repay curses with blessings. We have been “elected” to be a living example of what Jesus taught and to live a life that at times will have no external reason for any hope or joy, in order that we can have an opportunity to give the reason for the hope that the world sees within us.

Would it matter if God “elected” us to more than just “faith” and “Heaven”?