The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 13, 2018

A challenge was offered in another thread, and that challenge was met not with an answer, but with counter-challenges to other members. In response, I offer a reminder to [MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION] of these issue at hand.

ImaginaryDay2 said:
...I would challenge Pedrito to give us a succinct explanation of the "Simple Original Apostolic Gospel" so revealed (or not so revealed) to him

Parentheses added by me. Let's start there as opposed to asking for "proof texts" from others who have made their views clear.

Original thread for context:
Would I Be Admitted

Pedrito · Dec 16, 2018

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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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Doctrine 1 – There is a Conscious “Soul” That Survives Human Death

ImaginaryDay2, Post #1:

A challenge was offered in another thread, and that challenge was met not with an answer, but with counter-challenges to other members. In response, I offer a reminder to Pedrito of these issue at hand.

Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 in
...I would challenge Pedrito to give us a succinct explanation of the "Simple Original Apostolic Gospel" so revealed (or not so revealed) to him

Click to expand...

Parentheses added by me. Let's start there as opposed to asking for "proof texts" from others who have made their views clear.

As was pointed out in Post #131 of the “Would I be admitted” thread, people normally reject out of hand, ideas that they don’t want to believe. That is true whether the ideas are demonstrably true, or not.

So as a practical alternative, we were to focus on doctrines of Christendom one by one, to see if they truly had Scriptural basis. As each belief was reviewed, it would be shown to be Scriptural or not, and therefore part of the Original Apostolic Gospel or not. Very simple. Very straightforward. And highly appropriate.

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That approach is especially practical, since people choose to continue to cling to treasured unscriptural beliefs, while insisting that those beliefs are based only on the Bible. That situation is clearly evidenced by a continuing inability to present relevant verses that have been claimed to exist. In that situation, if I or anyone else presented the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel to those people for their predictable summary rejection of it, couldn’t we be considered by God to be doing something like casting pearls before swine?

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Continued…

MoreCoffee · Dec 16, 2018

You could try this passage, it is mainly about the resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, [SUP]2[/SUP] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast--unless you believed in vain. [SUP]3[/SUP] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, [SUP]4[/SUP] that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, [SUP]5[/SUP] and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. [SUP]6[/SUP] Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. [SUP]7[/SUP] Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. [SUP]8[/SUP] Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. [SUP]9[/SUP] For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. [SUP]10[/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me. [SUP]11[/SUP] Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 16, 2018

Pedrito said:
As was pointed out in Post #131 of the “Would I be admitted” thread, people normally reject out of hand, ideas that they don’t want to believe. That is true whether the ideas are demonstrably true, or not.

Perhaps. But as there were no ideas posited by you that cannot be examined and concluded.

Pedrito said:
So as a practical alternative, we were to focus on doctrines of Christendom one by one, to see if they truly had Scriptural basis. As each belief was reviewed, it would be shown to be Scriptural or not, and therefore part of the Original Apostolic Gospel or not. Very simple. Very straightforward. And highly appropriate.

Perhaps; however, this approach wasn't agreed on, so "we" (i.e. you) offered the alternative. I stand by my original challenge, hence this thread.

Pedrito said:
That approach is especially practical, since people choose to continue to cling to treasured unscriptural beliefs, while insisting that those beliefs are based only on the Bible. That situation is clearly evidenced by a continuing inability to present relevant verses that have been claimed to exist. In that situation, if I or anyone else presented the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel to those people for their predictable summary rejection of it, couldn’t we be considered by God to be doing something like casting pearls before swine?

Perhaps it could be practical. Seeing as how MoreCoffee has taken you up on the alternative approach suggested (not agreed upon) we'll see how it goes. However, the burden remains with you to answer the challenge in as simple and succinct a manner as possible.

Pedrito · Dec 25, 2018

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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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General

MoreCoffee’s offering of 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 in Post 3, was definitely a good suggestion with respect to a broad base from which to work.

We learn from that passage:
- The Gospel saves people, and its component teachings are:
– Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
– He was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
– Heaps of people saw Him, and thus His resurrection was confirmed.

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But I suspect that some CH Readers would like a little more information. That cannot be the whole story.

My repeated mention of The Original Apostolic Gospel, was designed to help people identify what God has revealed through the Bible when it is read as it was written – without the filters of denominationalism. That would reveal with certainty exactly which Church (if any) is faithfully teaching the original Gospel. That investigation involves comparison – it is a natural outcome – it cannot be avoided.

The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel was (and still is) “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3). It was complete. It needed no addition or modification. So perhaps we should ask MoreCoffee to reveal for us some more aspects of the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel, as well as why it was felt necessary to modify that original Gospel significantly by additions that now make that original Gospel unrecognisable.

Those additions include:
- The “True Church” being led by a strict hierarchical priesthood based in Rome;
- Confession of sins to that hierarchical priesthood being a preparation for participation in the “Eucharist” ritual;
- The term “Father” being employed when addressing members of that priesthood (apparently contradicting Jesus’ direct command);
- Believers being in danger of spending time in a detrimental place labelled “Purgatory”;
- Other doctrines that have been adopted progressively over the centuries:
-- Including the mother of Jesus being co-Mediatrix;
– And in case the official title co-Redemptrix is ultimately adopted, that too.

So, I hereby request that information. Wouldn't some Readers find that differentiation helpful?

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Pedrito · Dec 28, 2018

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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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General

Having been encouraged by MoreCoffee’s commencement of a definition of the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel, might it well be appropriate to ask Arsenios to provide us with detail of the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel he referred to in Post #105 in the thread "Would I be admitted":

fwiw - I can give it in less than 10 seconds standing on one foot...

That information may be very helpful to a number of Readers, because it could well present a different perspective. That being the case, it would be of valuable service.

It would be good to ask him nicely however – he did not actually offer to present that information to us. We are requesting a favour.

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As well as that information, a listing of the divergences between the Apostolic teachings and practices found in that simple less-than-10-second gospel, and those in the much more complex, current, Greek Orthodox religion, would probably be an aid to our understanding as well.

So let’s request that, too.

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ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 28, 2018

Pedrito said:
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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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General

Having been encouraged by MoreCoffee’s commencement of a definition of the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel, might it well be appropriate to ask Arsenios to provide us with detail of the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel he referred to in Post #105 in the thread "Would I be admitted":

That information may be very helpful to a number of Readers, because it could well present a different perspective. That being the case, it would be of valuable service.

It would be good to ask him nicely however – he did not actually offer to present that information to us. We are requesting a favour.

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As well as that information, a listing of the divergences between the Apostolic teachings and practices found in that simple less-than-10-second gospel, and those in the much more complex, current, Greek Orthodox religion, would probably be an aid to our understanding as well.

So let’s request that, too.

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[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION] ^^^

Arsenios · Dec 29, 2018

Pedrito said:
Might it well be appropriate to ask Arsenios
provide us with detail of the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel
he referred to in Post #105 in the thread
"Would I be admitted":

Do I need to stand up on one foot and recite it in 10 seconds or less???

Here is the Good News!
A NEW EVENT has occurred upon this earth in which we find ourselves so fallen...
That New Event is the ARRIVAL here and now of the Kingdom of Heaven...
And there is something that man - even you and I and Lamm - can DO about it...
Soooo.....
Standing on one foot...
I present you with the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
Proclaimed by John the Baptizer of Christ and His Forerunner...
Then after his death proclaimed by Christ Himself...
And after His Death on the Cross, proclaimed by Peter...
And to this day proclaimed to all who hear the Gospel:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

There!

Three second's worth that time...

The Gospel before Christ...
The Gospel by Christ...
The Gospel after Christ...

Christ's Holy Gospel...

Repent!
Be ye repenting and keep on repenting!
The Gospel is a Command first...
THEN comes the Reason:
For the Kingdom of the Heavens...
That Kingdom which is Christ Incarnate...
Where Christ is our Lord and Master...
Into Whom we are Baptized...
And are given Food and Drink...
Is HERE AND NOW upon this earth...
Is at hand!

One can only enter this Kingdom in purity of heart...
So we repent until we are ready to be washed in Baptism...
Then we are Baptized into Christ washing away all our sins...
And then are sealed in this purity by the anointing of the Holy Spirit...
This is our Christing=Anointing
And only then are we given His Body to eat and His Blood to drink...
And we proceed to continue repenting to keep this purity to the end...
This purity received in Baptism...
As we "run the race set before us"...
As we are slowly transformed as we mature in Christ...
One overcoming of demonic assault after the next...
From Glory to Glory...

"I will take the Cup of Salvation...
And I will call upon the Name of the Lord!"
[A Psalm of David]

THAT IS the Gospel of Christ - The rest makes it possible...
Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...
But He would not have been Crucified...
For THAT we can thank ourselves in our sins...
And Christ's Love for all mankind...
Even for you and me...

What Peter added was:
"Repent and be Baptized..."

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ...
Have put on Christ..."

Arsenios

Arsenios · Dec 29, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION] ^^^

You are a VERY rotten child!

And NO who-me?'s either !!

Dragging me out of sloth and indolence!

Have you no shame??

Arsenios

ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 29, 2018

Arsenios said:
You are a VERY rotten child!

And NO who-me?'s !!

Dragging me out of sloth and indolence!

Have you no shame??

Arsenios

:cool-relaxed:

Arsenios · Dec 29, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
:cool-relaxed:

So now you too can give the Gospel of Christ while standing on one foot in less than 10 seconds!

And Pedrito too...

'Tsnotso hard now, is it?

I have a friend named Innocent...

I call him Notso...

Arsenios

Pedrito · Dec 29, 2018

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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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General

Thanks to Arsenios for the effort he put into preparing his Post #8. It was rather lengthy for a less-than-10-second summary, but it did include expanded explanations.

It is probably just me, but I found the submission to lack the succinctness I had hoped for. However, a few points can be presented based on that submission.

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1. I had thought that a major focus of The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel would have been God’s rescue of Mankind from the wages of sin – death.

2. I was surprised by the statement “Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...”. A sensible question is: “Why?” Another is: “Where does Holy Scripture tell us that?”

3. Arsenios did differentiate between the The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel and the Greek Orthodox religion in one area that stood out for me. The statements – “So we repent until we are ready to be washed in Baptism...” followed by “Then we are Baptized into Christ washing away all our sins...” – actually pertain to the Original Apostolic Gospel – because they cannot apply to the overwhelming majority of Greek Orthodox adherents. The Greek Orthodox Church routinely practices infant baptism. Therefore those statements cannot apply.

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So Arsenios has put forward (perhaps inadvertently) that The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel involved Credobaptism, as opposed to the Paedobaptism practised by the Organisation to which he belongs.

Should we book that revelation as a confirmed characteristic of The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel?

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ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 29, 2018

Arsenios said:
So now you too can give the Gospel of Christ while standing on one foot in less than 10 seconds!

And Pedrito too...

'Tsnotso hard now, is it?

I have a friend named Innocent...

I call him Notso...

Arsenios

Ten seconds? Not so sure it's that simple. I've the next four days off, so I'll attempt it. It was my intention to merely be an observer here, but I'l give it a shot (fully anticipating being ripped to shreds). I'm not much for formal debate - failed utterly in high school. So the point/counter-point that's usually required is hard for me in general. Hopefully we can proceed with that understanding

Arsenios · Dec 29, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
Ten seconds? Not so sure it's that simple. I've the next four days off, so I'll attempt it. It was my intention to merely be an observer here, but I'l give it a shot (fully anticipating being ripped to shreds). I'm not much for formal debate - failed utterly in high school. So the point/counter-point that's usually required is hard for me in general. Hopefully we can proceed with that understanding

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Ten Seconds easy!

Arsenios

Arsenios · Dec 29, 2018

Pedrito said:
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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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General

Thanks to Arsenios for the effort he put into preparing his Post #8. It was rather lengthy for a less-than-10-second summary, but it did include expanded explanations.

It is probably just me, but I found the submission to lack the succinctness I had hoped for. However, a few points can be presented based on that submission.

==============================================================================================

1. I had thought that a major focus of The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel would have been God’s rescue of Mankind from the wages of sin – death.

2. I was surprised by the statement “Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...”. A sensible question is: “Why?” Another is: “Where does Holy Scripture tell us that?”

3. Arsenios did differentiate between the The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel and the Greek Orthodox religion in one area that stood out for me. The statements – “So we repent until we are ready to be washed in Baptism...” followed by “Then we are Baptized into Christ washing away all our sins...” – actually pertain to the Original Apostolic Gospel – because they cannot apply to the overwhelming majority of Greek Orthodox adherents. The Greek Orthodox Church routinely practices infant baptism. Therefore those statements cannot apply.

==============================================================================================

So Arsenios has put forward (perhaps inadvertently) that The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel involved Credobaptism, as opposed to the Paedobaptism practised by the Organisation to which he belongs.

Should we book that revelation as a confirmed characteristic of The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel?

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The Greeks simply Baptize their Children INTO Christ...

The parents take responsibility for their children's repentance by raising them as Children of God...

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

That is the Gospel of Christ...

Do you need me to give you the chapter and verse?

The Gospel is for non-Christians...

The Greeks are living the Gospel...

Arsenios

hedrick · Dec 30, 2018

There are, for better or worse, two definitions of the Gospel in the NT:

* For the Synoptics, the Gospel is about the coming of the Kingdom. While it's nowhere stated in one place, I would summarize: Christ has come to initiate God's Kingdom on earth; he is its source; we are called to be its agents; we will be accountable for how we respond to that call.

* For Paul and other authors, the Gospel is that Christ died and was raised for us, and through faith in him we are raised with him to new life.

I think both are apostolic.

Pedrito · Dec 30, 2018

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The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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General

I would like to express my personal thanks to people who are contributing their thoughts, and to those who will do so in the future.

I hope to continue to offer thoughts and ask questions myself (for purposes of clarification as opposed to combativeness, even if my method of expression may seem direct at times).

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From hedrick, who offered the thought in Post #16: “There are, for better or worse, two definitions of the Gospel in the NT:

* For the Synoptics, the Gospel is about the coming of the Kingdom. While it's nowhere stated in one place, I would summarize: Christ has come to initiate God's Kingdom on earth; he is its source; we are called to be its agents; we will be accountable for how we respond to that call.

* For Paul and other authors, the Gospel is that Christ died and was raised for us, and through faith in him we are raised with him to new life.

I think both are apostolic.”,

I ask for clarification regarding Hebrews 2:3-4 (NIV):
3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

There seems to be a continuity there, and therefore a unity.

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ImaginaryDay2 in Post #13 offered: “Ten seconds? Not so sure it's that simple. I've the next four days off, so I'll attempt it. It was my intention to merely be an observer here, but I'l give it a shot (fully anticipating being ripped to shreds). I'm not much for formal debate - failed utterly in high school. So the point/counter-point that's usually required is hard for me in general. Hopefully we can proceed with that understanding;

ImaginaryDay2’s thoughts will be welcomed (by me at least). Once again, any comments or questions forthcoming from me in response, will (hopefully) be in the vein of clarification, as opposed to ripping to shreds or a point/counter-point stance.

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Arsenios · Dec 30, 2018

hedrick said:
There are, for better or worse, two definitions of the Gospel in the NT:

* For the Synoptics, the Gospel is about the coming of the Kingdom. While it's nowhere stated in one place, I would summarize: Christ has come to initiate God's Kingdom on earth; he is its source; we are called to be its agents; we will be accountable for how we respond to that call.

* For Paul and other authors, the Gospel is that Christ died and was raised for us, and through faith in him we are raised with him to new life.

I think both are apostolic.

They are the same Gospel.

Christ proclaimed: "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand."
He then added: "From the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven is permitting violence, and the violent are seizing it by force."
He also explains: "If any is willing after Me to be coming, let him first deny himself, then take up his cross, and follow Me."
Then Christ appears in Spirit to Saul on the Road to Damascus and asks Saul:
"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?"
And Paul consecrates his life to suffering for the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia...
Because the Body of Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth...
Christ both ascended bodily into the Heavens...
AND left Himself directing His Body here on earth...
"For Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the Age..."
And it is Paul who wrote: "As many as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ."
And it is Christ Who directed His Apostles to Baptize the Nations...
And it was John the Baptist who said it is Christ Who will Baptize...
Christ is Baptizing into His Own Body through the hands of His Apostles...
The hands of His Servants in obedience to Him ARE His Hands...
The Kingdom of Heaven on earth is the Body of Christ on earth...
Christ died on the Cross that we should find forgiveness of all sin...
That we be Baptized into His Body the Ekklesia, the Kingdom of Heaven...
Because Christ is Himself the Kingdom of Heaven on earth...
We are Baptized into the Risen Christ...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Dec 30, 2018

Pedrito said:
Thanks to Arsenios for the effort he put into preparing his Post #8.
It was rather lengthy for a less-than-10-second summary, but it did include expanded explanations.

The length explained the 9 word 3 second statement of the Gospel...

Which I thought adequately succinct...

is probably just me, but I found the submission to lack the succinctness I had hoped for.

Would 8 words rather than the actual 9 I offered have been succinct enough for you?

. I had thought that a major focus of The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel would have been God’s rescue of Mankind from the wages of sin – death.

It is and it was... We are baptized into Christ's Body by Christ in His Body the Apostolic Church in which death is overcome...

. I was surprised by the statement “Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...”.
A sensible question is: “Why?” Another is: “Where does Holy Scripture tell us that?”

C'mon, Pedrito!
Christ was crucified for our sins...
If Adam had not sinned...
Christ need not have been crucified...

Occam's razor 101...

. Arsenios did differentiate between the The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel and the Greek Orthodox religion in one area that stood out for me. The statements – “So we repent until we are ready to be washed in Baptism...” followed by “Then we are Baptized into Christ washing away all our sins...” – actually pertain to the Original Apostolic Gospel – because they cannot apply to the overwhelming majority of Greek Orthodox adherents. The Greek Orthodox Church routinely practices infant baptism. Therefore those statements cannot apply.

Infant Baptism commits the parents to the child's repentance via their rearing of that child...

And infants simply have less sins, normally, than adult converts - So their cleansing in the Waters of Regeneration normally will be purging less -
But no matter what, when one emerges from the Baptismal Waters,
one is absolutely cleansed from all sin,
and in this pristine cleansed condition,
one is given the Seal of the Holy Spirit by the Baptizing Priest...

Arsenios has put forward (perhaps inadvertently) that The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel involved Credobaptism, as opposed to the Paedobaptism practised by the Organisation to which he belongs.
Should we book that revelation as a confirmed characteristic of The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel?[/color]

Hopefully you will have by now abandoned that hopeful aspiration of your understanding...

Arsenios

ImaginaryDay2 · Jan 1, 2019

Okay, I know this is scripture in isolation, but it is both simple and original -

"Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized..." (Acts 2:37b - 41a).

As for the "many other words" included, Luke either was not made aware of them, or chose to be concise - emphasizing the essential point. Whatever the words, those present were obedient to the message and followed Peter's instruction. We can use this as a starting point, perhaps, to dig further into the 'Gospel'

The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

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