Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

Josiah said:

Yes. Jesus died for all. Just as the Bible SO often says, if we just read and believe what it says... not deleting what it says then inserting what it does NOT say so as to turn it 180 degrees opposite.

No. That doesn't result in everyone being saved because there is another factor, faith. While the work of Christ is for all, not all embrace it. I suppose you have the ability to ask "why?" but that doesn't mean anyone has the ability to answer it. Some approach God with humility. Some say what God does, others tell God what He should say.





... and for that faith to be effective, there must be something for it to embrace/trust/rely upon... something that is real FOR THEM.






Nope. Not at all.

The difference is you are mandating a very radical DOGMA first invented by a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists and today rejected by virtually all Calvinists I'm aware of, one CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY not taught in Scripture (which is why you can't come up with anything) and OBVIOUSLY contradicted by a plethora of verses... that Jesus died ONLY for a few.

I'm standing with Scripture.... 2000 years of ecumenical tradition.... And believing what Scripture says. No doubting. No wondering. No telling God, "but that can't be because it doesn't make sense to me."





Irrelevant and off-topic, but correct, you can't see that. If Christ died for only a few, then His Sacrifice is meaningless to any individual - because odds are He didn't die for them and their faith probably is in vain, they won't know until they die if what they've been trusting is really just empty nothingness. But we're WAY off topic.





You seem good at asking questions.... then appointing yourself to answer them..... then claiming your answer to be dogma. A lack of humility there, my friend. This we can say with Scripture: God desires all to be saved. Jesus died for all. We apprehend that by faith. God gives faith to some. Now... do we understand how all that works? How all that cranks out? No. We know what God has told us.

You DEMAND that God submit to YOUR brain, YOUR (frankly, absurdly illogical) logic - even when it directly, obviously, contradicts EXACTLY what God has said. Maybe a little humility in needed. Maybe faith is needed. Maybe God knows more about all this than you do? Is that possible? Maybe what we should say is what God does, rather than the exact opposite?





See.... this is just ONE of the things that frustrates me so much when discussing the very radical aspects of hyper-Calvinism with you.... the constant shell game, the perpetual lack of humility. Friend, NO CHRISTIAN ON THE PLANET denies that Christ atoned for all the elect and saved every one whom the Father gave him. I've agreed with you as boldly as possible every time you'd said that! But TRY to address the issue! TRY to stop the endless shell game! NOTHING you said there remotely supports the radical dogma long ago abandoned by most Calvinists: that Jesus died ONLY for the elect.





Friend, everyone sees how you employ some of the biggest, most radical, most extreme eisegesis every witnessed (much worse than Catholics on the papacy, etc.). You HAD to turn all those versed upside down and inside out, deleting the key words and replacing them with the opposite, in order to get them to agree with you. It's horrible.





HHHHHHHHHEEEEEEELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOO

It's the dogma we're discussing! You having nothing to show that Christ died ONLY for the church does not substantiate that He died ONLY for the church.





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Josiah said:

Which is why Calvinism can lead to deleting faith... faith being moot... and why many Calvinist churches ultimately became Universalist churches.


Friend, the Reformation Theology you have abandoned is the very one on which the Reformation is founded: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You have simply replaced that with your own "logical construct."






... and of course, everyone here has fully agreed with you on that. I have REPEATEDLY.

Now, if that was the topic here, we all would have agreed back on page one! But here we are on page 37... because that's not the topic, is it?


But let's return to the topic. We're still waiting: Where does Scripture say that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the elect? That's the topic we're discussing (and nothing else), that's the dogma under review (and nothing else). It does no good to switch to something we all agree on (because it IS what Scripture says, what 2000 years of Christianity says). You give Scriptures that we all agree with (and unlike you, don't need to add or delete any of the words in them) but you won't give a Scripture that says what you do. I think it's obvious: Because you can't.

And you seem to like to change subjects. Constantly. You are right when you say that the dogma is that Christ died ONLY for the church. But then you waver and say, "Well, the RESULT of that BENEFITS only the believers" which is what the rest of us are saying, but you seem to suggest that makes all of us wrong. The dogma is NOT, "Christ's Death Results in Limited Salvation? it's "Christ died for only a few." A doctrine you not once supported, in 37 pages. A doctrine you could not find one verse that teaches. A doctrine that required you deny a whole host of verses about, all of which obviously say the exact opposite of what you do.






It's not only the perpetual shell game.... the HUGE eisegesis.... but your idea that if you make an ABSURD, LAUGHABLE charge that those who disagree with you teach what everyone knows they don't, ergo you must be right. You know I'm a monergist, you know I believe faith is a divine gift. EVERYONE HERE KNOWS THAT. So, you (laughably) accusing me of what you and everyone KNOWS is false does NOT make you right. You need a refresher on logic, my friend.

And here again, the shell game. This thread is not whether faith is a personal choice or a divine gift (nice topic, JUST NOT THIS ONE)... it's about this radical dogma invented by a few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that "Jesus died ONLY for the church." How you love to change the subject.... even trying to "win" by changing the subject, FALSELY accusing another of a position EVERYONE knows they don't hold, and then claiming because they are wrong about that other matter you ERGO are right about this one. Friend, think about that.

Now, read and consider what I posted to you.



A blessed Second Day of Christmas to all



- Josiah

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Josiah said:

... then why insist that people are unsaved because Christ never died for them? Especially when you have NOTHING that states Christ only died for a few and must alter all the many verses that state He died for all?





It's pointless to just perpetually play the shell game and refuse to address the issue at hand.... to FALSELY accuse others of absurd things they don't believe about some other matter and then argue you must therefore be right about this one.... to impose radical extreme eisegesis on verses by deleting the very words that contradict you and jsut inserting instead the word you wish had been there....

It's really quite simple. Stop the diversions, the accusations, the eisegesis. And just quote the verse(s) that say what you do, and explain why the verses that contradict you are wrong (and don't CHANGE the verses so that they are the opposite of what they are). After all, aren't you the one that insists we must reject any doctrine not clearly taught in the words of the Bible? ARen't you the one who condemns when words of texts are deleted when they contradict and replaced with other words so they won't?

It's HARD to have this conversation with you (and pretty much everyone else gave up LONG AGO) because you won't discuss it. You just ask questions.... falsely accuse others of believing what everyone knows they don't.... dodge... change the subject.... and impose (truly, honestly) the most radical, extreme eisegesis I've ever witnessed. I wonder why.

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Josiah said:

Quote a verse that says Christ died ONLY for a few, JUST for the church - and I will.

Show why all the MANY verses that flat-out contradict you are all wrong (and don't delete the key words and substitute different words you prefer to do it) - and I will.

Easy.

Been waiting for how many pages now? Waiting for that. In vain.

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Josiah wrote: Now, I don't agree with all the things YOU insert into the texts.... or all the things you delete from the texts... I agree with what the texts actually state.

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