Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

psalms 91 · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
Sounds logical at first, but if the price for the sins of the whole world were indeed paid, it would not make the slightest difference if a person accepted or rejected the Son. He would already be freed from the guilt for sin, which is the only reason for anyone to be hell-bound.

Now we get into the area of do we accept the gift or not, if we refuse it then nothing is cleansed for like any gift it has to be opened and used or in this case accepted by cionfessing our sins and acceptoing the Son. I know there are those who do not agree with this but that is how I see it and how a lot of Christianity sees it as well. Doesnt make sense that there are those who are priveleged and chosen while the rest rot, that is not the God I know.

Arsenios · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
Sounds logical at first, but if the price for the sins of the whole world were indeed paid, it would not make the slightest difference if a person accepted or rejected the Son. He would already be freed from the guilt for sin, which is the only reason for anyone to be hell-bound.

Logical enough...

But even though may ticket is paid, I still have to enter the train, plane of ferry...

I see the times as a kind of sorting out process, where our lives determine our future life...

Our actions here have eternal consequences...

Arsenios

Albion · Dec 13, 2018

psalms 91 said:
Now we get into the area of do we accept the gift or not....

Why? If someone mows your lawn for you and you didn't ask for it to be done, it has still been mowed. If you have all your sins absolved, there is no basis for you to be eternally punished (hell). For what? There are no transgressions to be held against you. The only reason to think that a person needs to accept Christ is because we think that he did not, literally, eliminate all the sins of all people by his sacrifice on the Cross.

Josiah · Dec 13, 2018

MennoSota said:
What does the text tell us, Josiah?

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more... And not ANYTHING that says "Jesus died for a minority of people, God's grace and mercy are extended to only a minority." Nothing about "Jesus died ONLY for the church or for Calvinists"

MennoSota said:
There is no need to insert anything, Josiah.

To get that Jesus died ONLY for the "elect" (as you insist), you must insert "ONLY" into texts where the word doesn't exist, and of course you must ignore SO many Scriptures - including the ones quoted here.

arsenios said:
But even though may ticket is paid, I still have to enter the train, plane of ferry...

If the ticket you are holding is a fraud, a trick - because it actually isn't for YOU - then you trusting it would be in vain (and in fact a cruel joke played on you). This is just one reason why "limited atonement" is not only contrary to Scripture but makes faith irrelevant (one can never know if the ticket they have is valid or not) and quite cruel and terrorizing.

.

MennoSota · Dec 13, 2018

Josiah said:
1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more... And not ANYTHING that says "Jesus died for a minority of people, God's grace and mercy are extended to only a minority." Nothing about "Jesus died ONLY for the church or for Calvinists"

To get that Jesus died ONLY for the "elect" (as you insist), you must insert "ONLY" into texts where the word doesn't exist, and of course you must ignore SO many Scriptures - including the ones quoted here.

If the ticket you are holding is a fraud, a trick - because it actually isn't for YOU - then you trusting it would be in vain (and in fact a cruel joke played on you). This is just one reason why "limited atonement" is not only contrary to Scripture but makes faith irrelevant (one can never know if the ticket they have is valid or not) and quite cruel and terrorizing.

.

I don't have to add "only." You have to show that "all" the world is saved. If Christ atoned for all the world, then all the world is atoned for...no exceptions.
Are you a universalist, Josiah? If not, then God chooses whom he has died for...as the scriptures very clearly state.

NewCreation435 · Dec 13, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
I think it's been done in CH at least 5 times before.

Yeah, it is. And how many people do you think it will convince they were wrong by discussing it some more. Zero Zilch, nada

psalms 91 · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
Why? If someone mows your lawn for you and you didn't ask for it to be done, it has still been mowed. If you have all your sins absolved, there is no basis for you to be eternally punished (hell). For what? There are no transgressions to be held against you. The only reason to think that a person needs to accept Christ is because we think that he did not, literally, eliminate all the sins of all people by his sacrifice on the Cross.

Wrong on so many levels, I will not debate and go around this same old bush that has been beaten to death already so many times

psalms 91 · Dec 13, 2018

jsimms435 said:
Yeah, it is. And how many people do you think it will convince they were wrong by discussing it some more. Zero Zilch, nada

Yup why I am done, believe what you will

Albion · Dec 13, 2018

psalms 91 said:
Wrong on so many levels, I will not debate and go around this same old bush that has been beaten to death already so many times

Has it really? I wasn't aware that Universalism has been debated that often on CH. Mainly before my time, apparently.

Albion · Dec 13, 2018

MennoSota said:
I don't have to add "only." You have to show that "all" the world is saved. If Christ atoned for all the world, then all the world is atoned for...no exceptions.
Are you a universalist, Josiah? If not, then God chooses whom he has died for...as the scriptures very clearly state.

We can debate what it is that the Scriptures "clearly state," but it is not the case that a person is either a TULIP Calvinist or else he is a Universalist and there are no other possibilities!

MennoSota · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
We can debate what it is that the Scriptures "clearly state," but it is not the case that a person is either a TULIP Calvinist or else he is a Universalist and there are no other possibilities!

Either God died for the elect or God died for all humanity. Those are the logical outcomes of reading scripture. The other thought is illogical and postulates that Jesus blood was spent with zero effect upon the majority of humanity. That concept makes God virtually ineffective on the cross. Do you have such a low view of God, Albion? Was the blood of Jesus just wasted upon humanity? Was God incapable of atoning for the vast majority of humanity?
Certainly scripture does not teach that the blood of Christ is worthless to those for whom he died. Yet, that is the argument of the free-will camp that makes themselves greater than God. Are you going to plant your feet in that quagmire of illusion and illogic?

Albion · Dec 13, 2018

MennoSota said:
Either God died for the elect or God died for all humanity.

Of course that is open to a lot of interpreting. As we have seen, most people who insist that God died for all of humanity--or for the sins of the whole world--do not take that literally and accept Universalism as true.

MennoSota · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
Of course that is open to a lot of interpreting. As we have seen, most people who insist that God died for all of humanity--or for the sins of the whole world--do not take that literally and accept Universalism as true.

The other thought is illogical and postulates that Jesus blood was spent with zero effect upon the majority of humanity. That concept makes God virtually ineffective on the cross. Do you have such a low view of God, Albion? Was the blood of Jesus just wasted upon humanity? Was God incapable of atoning for the vast majority of humanity?

Certainly scripture does not teach that the blood of Christ is worthless to those for whom he died. Yet, that is the argument of the free-will camp that makes themselves greater than God. Are you going to plant your feet in that quagmire of illusion and illogic?

Josiah · Dec 13, 2018

Josiah said:
1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...

And not ANYTHING, not one verse that says "Jesus died for a minority of people, God's grace and mercy are extended to only a minority." Nothing about "Jesus died ONLY for the church or for Calvinists"

.

MennoSota said:
Either God died for the elect or God died for all humanity.

The Elect are part of all humanity... Does the Scripture ever say "ONLY the Elect?"

Those are the logical outcomes of reading scripture.

The "elect" are part of all humanity. To say "died for the elect" is not logically inconsistent with "died for all."

The other thought is illogical and postulates that Jesus blood was spent with zero effect upon the majority of humanity.

Only because you keep disregarding faith. You've abandoned the Reformation view of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide for Limited Atonement. Yes, God loves ALL (and yup, hates all). Yup, Christ died for ALL. Exactly as the Bible says. But does that mean all are justified? No, because there's a factor you keep deleting: faith. Faith is what apprehends, "plugs into," embraces, trusts, relies upon that Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. Thus, where there is faith there IS justification because there IS justification THERE for everyone, it's THERE for faith to embrace. By your eliminating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and replacing all that with Limited Atonement, faith is irrelevant (which is why you entirely ignore it).... because for most people, there's nothing for their faith to grasp, apprehend, plug-into, embrace, trust, rely... it's all a cruel joke on most people by having nothing there for them - no grace, no Christ (thus the abandonment of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus), no mercy, just pure emptiness... no one will know this until they check into hell, of course.

Read the Scriptures. There's NOTHING about "ONLY for the Elect.... ONLY for Calvinists." What Scripture says is: 1 John 2:2, Isaiah 53:6, Luke 19:10, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Hebrews 2:9, John 1:29, 1 John 4:14, John 4:42, John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it), and so much more...

.

MennoSota · Dec 13, 2018

Josiah said:
MennoSota said:

Either God died for the elect or God died for all humanity.

Click to expand...

I don't disregard faith. I acknowledge what scripture says...that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast.
I recognize that God establishes faith, activates faith and matures faith unto eternity.
I do not preach human effort, which is the preaching of the semi-pelagian, in which you are firmly ensconced.

Albion · Dec 13, 2018

MennoSota said:
The other thought is illogical and postulates that Jesus blood was spent with zero effect upon the majority of humanity.

I cannot agree that it is illogical if God chooses whom he will rescue. The Bible shows him being partial to some and not others. Many times.

It might be something else, and I am not adopting the other POV by saying that, but illogical it is not.

MennoSota · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
I cannot agree that it is illogical if God chooses whom he will rescue. The Bible shows him being partial to some and not others. Many times.

It might be something else, and I am not adopting the other POV by saying that, but illogical it is not.

You are agreeing with me that God chooses whom he wills. You agree that it is logical and more so...biblical.
What, then, is your complaint?

Albion · Dec 13, 2018

MennoSota said:
You are agreeing with me that God chooses whom he wills.

No, I'm not.

I've said that there are more than two possible views of the matter and, also, that neither of the two you put to us to choose between can be discounted as illogical.

MennoSota · Dec 13, 2018

Albion said:
No, I'm not.

I've said that there are more than two possible views of the matter and, also, that neither of the two you put to us to choose between can be discounted as illogical.

There are many views. However, the middle views are illogical and make God a wimpy being who is incapable of effectively saving anyone unless that person chooses God of their own free will.

You have avoided and side-skipped your massive problem, Albion. Why do you project a wimpy God?

psalms 91 · Dec 13, 2018

MennoSota said:
There are many views. However, the middle views are illogical and make God a wimpy being who is incapable of effectively saving anyone unless that person chooses God of their own free will.

You have avoided and side-skipped your massive problem, Albion. Why do you project a wimpy God?

Why do you ignore the plank in your eye?

Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

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