Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 19, 2018

pinacled said:
That subject of the torah terrain is for adults only...

Clearly. That's why the subject you responded to is so often taught to children

Andrew · Dec 19, 2018

MennoSota said:
God knew before creation that Adam and Eve would sin and need His grace.

Scriptural citation needed to continue arguing this claim.
God made man in His image which was Good, he did not predestine his image of Himself to sin and fall.
He gave them a choice, FREE WILL if you will Menno, but man rebelled against Gods Will to be fruitful and multiply.

Andrew · Dec 19, 2018

pinacled said:
That subject of the torah terrain is for adults only...and discretion is needed first before such a testimony Is Spoken Out Loud.

Do you understand?

Not one bit, maybe you could elaborate for me

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Andrew said:
Scriptural citation needed to continue arguing this claim.
God made man in His image which was Good, he did not predestine his image of Himself to sin and fall.
He gave them a choice, FREE WILL if you will Menno, but man rebelled against Gods Will to be fruitful and multiply.

Hebrews 4:13
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account”
Psalm 33:13-15
“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do”
Psalm 147:4-5
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit”*
Psalm 139:15-16
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you”
Psalm 139:1-3
“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways”

Andrew · Dec 20, 2018

MennoSota said:
Hebrews 4:13
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account”
Psalm 33:13-15
“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do”
Psalm 147:4-5
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit”*
Psalm 139:15-16
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you”
Psalm 139:1-3
“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways”

I still don't see the part where God wanted man to sin.
These are lovely verses stating how God knows us more than we could ever imagine, he created us indeed but nothing here states that he created man to fall into sin. He created man with the ability to sin, we apparently failed that first day... but we weren't created for the sake of sin, that's just silly

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Andrew, God could have stopped Adam and Eve at any moment. He allowed them to make the choice. Being allowed to make a choice does not mean you are free. Slaves are allowed to make choices by their master, yet they are still slaves.
Free-will is different than allowed choices within a confined area. Free will means the person is the master and not under anyone's authority. It means human will is greater than God's. It means that God is subdued by the human will.
Is your will greater than God's, Andrew?
No, it is not. God either allows your actions or He stops them. You are under the authority of God.
The Bible tells us that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6
16Do you not know that if you present yourselves*to anyone as obedient slaves,*you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?*17But*thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the*standard of teaching to which you were committed,*18and,*having been set free from sin,*have become slaves of righteousness.

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Andrew said:
I still don't see the part where God wanted man to sin.
These are lovely verses stating how God knows us more than we could ever imagine, he created us indeed but nothing here states that he created man to fall into sin. He created man with the ability to sin, we apparently failed that first day... but we weren't created for the sake of sin, that's just silly

I never said God wanted man to sin. I said that God ordained that man would sin.
God allowed sin to take place. He did this according to His own purpose, of which we are not told. God could easily have stopped Adam and Eve. He could have stopped the serpent. God chose not to stop the events. Instead, God chose to reveal salvation by grace... something God did not reveal to angels. The scripture says that angels long to understand this act of grace, which God shows to man.
Please, do not imagine that God was taken by surprise when Adam and Eve sinned. Do not imagine that man's will was greater than God's and God was unable to stop the will of Adam.

Andrew · Dec 20, 2018

MennoSota said:
Andrew, God could have stopped Adam and Eve at any moment. He allowed them to make the choice. Being allowed to make a choice does not mean you are free. Slaves are allowed to make choices by their master, yet they are still slaves.
Free-will is different than allowed choices within a confined area. Free will means the person is the master and not under anyone's authority. It means human will is greater than God's. It means that God is subdued by the human will.
Is your will greater than God's, Andrew?
No, it is not. God either allows your actions or He stops them. You are under the authority of God.
The Bible tells us that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6
16Do you not know that if you present yourselves*to anyone as obedient slaves,*you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?*17But*thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the*standard of teaching to which you were committed,*18and,*having been set free from sin,*have become slaves of righteousness.

I'm not saying that we have free will anymore but that Adam and Eve once did.
They were created righteous without flaw, but that temptation thing got us quick, but no God did not want us to take of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, it says that in Genesis I believe.

Andrew · Dec 20, 2018

MennoSota said:
I never said God wanted man to sin. I said that God ordained that man would sin.
God allowed sin to take place. He did this according to His own purpose, of which we are not told. God could easily have stopped Adam and Eve. He could have stopped the serpent. God chose not to stop the events. Instead, God chose to reveal salvation by grace... something God did not reveal to angels. The scripture says that angels long to understand this act of grace, which God shows to man.
Please, do not imagine that God was taken by surprise when Adam and Eve sinned. Do not imagine that man's will was greater than God's and God was unable to stop the will of Adam.

So God predestined mankind to eventually end up sinning against him?

Andrew · Dec 20, 2018

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]
I learn a lot from this man, this is a good study concerning theologians such as yourself. I genuinely hold many views expressed in this specific video, you have to sort of ride through some of his statements for a short time before he clarifies it with scripture.
https://youtu.be/Qq_5ABb-26k

MoreCoffee · Dec 20, 2018

pinacled said:
No,
And you should mind your manners youngin. If you want to have a conversation about a certain subject. Well, be an adult an start a thread.

:smirk:

Eliahu is the chap in Job ... the name mean "Yahweh is God" or close enough. So how is that "Satan"?

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Andrew said:
I'm not saying that we have free will anymore but that Adam and Eve once did.
They were created righteous without flaw, but that temptation thing got us quick, but no God did not want us to take of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, it says that in Genesis I believe.

There will was still subject under the Creator. Sin had no rule over them, but God still ruled over them. Free will is a myth that is not presented in scripture. It is a philosophy created by men because we want to have ultimate control over our lives.

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Andrew said:
So God predestined mankind to eventually end up sinning against him?

God ordained that humans could sin. Since God knows all things and knew that He would allow sin to exist, it is...in that sense...predestined. However, God did not cause sin to prevail. Humans are held responsible for sin. Humans are under the curse of sin. In Matthew 25 we see that the goats are separated from the sheep because they are under the curse. The sheep are inheriting what their Father gave them.
Predestination and Causation are two different things.

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Andrew said:
[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]
I learn a lot from this man, this is a good study concerning theologians such as yourself. I genuinely hold many views expressed in this specific video, you have to sort of ride through some of his statements for a short time before he clarifies it with scripture.
https://youtu.be/Qq_5ABb-26k

Les Feldman (just kidding) is a likeable guy. I have my disagreements, mostly due to his synergism when discussing salvation and his dispensationalism, but he's not a Joel Osteen wack-a-doodle so that's good. I prefer Alistair Begg, John Piper, Albert Moehler, and can even tolerate a small dose of John MacArthur.

Josiah · Dec 20, 2018

Let's TRY to stay on topic....

This thread is NOT about predestination (single, double or not-at-all).... it's not faith (as a gift of God or a free choice of people).... it's not whether God or Queen Elizabeth II is soveriegn.... it's about whether Christ died for ONLY a few. Whether Scripture states that or something quite different than that.

Albion · Dec 20, 2018

MennoSota said:
Les Feldman (just kidding) is a likeable guy.

and a really sharp dresser, too.

onder:

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Josiah said:
Let's TRY to stay on topic....

This thread is NOT about predestination (single, double or not-at-all).... it's not faith (as a gift of God or a free choice of people).... it's not whether God or Queen Elizabeth II is soveriegn.... it's about whether Christ died for ONLY a few. Whether Scripture states that or something quite different than that.

Did Jesus atone for all the goats whom he throws into hell, Josiah.
If yes, then it's clear that human sin is greater than God's atoning sacrifice and Jesus sacrifice was weak.
If no, then Jesus atonement is limited to the elect children whom God has chosen to save from before the foundation of the world.

Josiah · Dec 20, 2018

MennoSota said:
Did Jesus atone for all the goats whom he throws into hell, Josiah.

What does God say?

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

Do you have a verse that says Christ died for ONLY a few ( thus all the above Scriptures are wrong)? For ONLY the elect, the church, the Calvinists... a never-disclosed short list of a minority of people? If you do, please finally provide it.

MennoSota · Dec 20, 2018

Josiah said:
What does God say?

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

Do you have a verse that says Christ died for ONLY a few ( thus all the above Scriptures are wrong)? For ONLY the elect, the church, the Calvinists... a never-disclosed short list of a minority of people? If you do, please finally provide it.

None of them say that Jesus atoned for the sins of the goats.
I have explained all your verses so you know that the atonement is for all the elect. Not one of the elect is unatoned for. Jesus atonement is fully effective.
You teach that Jesus atonement fails for all who willfully, by their own actions, choose not to believe.
Jesus atonement, according to you, fails to be greater than the human will.
You are requiring humans to merit their salvation by choosing to believe in God's atonement by their own fleshly will. If they fail in this attempt, God cannot save them.
That is what you are teaching. You may be utterly blind to this fact, but it is absolutely your teaching. You are echoing Arminius.

ImaginaryDay2 · Dec 20, 2018

MennoSota said:
...God could have stopped Adam and Eve at any moment.

Could he? Is he contrary to himself? Could he act contrary to saving the elect? Reversing the very act that brought sin into the world would have negated the Law and, hence, the need for Christ to do anything.

MennoSota said:
He allowed them to make the choice.

Did he? Again, is he acting contrary to himself? The issue of choice has been at the very heart of your posts throughout many threads.

Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

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