The end ...

I don't think so. How would you know that it truly was the end and not the beginning of the end? I think it would be easier to assume that i had misunderstood what the Bible said in some important way and God had different ideas about how things would end.

MoreCoffee said:

That thought occurred to me. There's no telling if "the end" is really "the end" because of the possibility of miracle salvation or something similar.

But self blaming based on insufficient faith or insufficient understanding seems a lot like "blind faith".

Facts ought to matter. Maybe they don't. Faith is a powerful motive.

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Well, there are a lot of different ways to interpret end time events. You look at all the theories about the end such as post or pre or mid tribulationalists. Or when the thousand year reign will happen or if it will happen or how to interpret Revelations at all. And you open up a pandora box of interpretations that seem endless. These views are not just from some crackpot on the internet who has no degrees or education, but educated men and women who have studied the scriptures for years and disagree with each other. So, it isn't that weird or odd to think that perhaps my own interpretation was wrong in some ways.

MoreCoffee said:

Would you abandon the faith if the world was coming to its end and Jesus was not here, no angels, no separating the nations, no last judgement happening?

Like in Matthew 25:31-46

Like in Revelation ...

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For myself, my Brother, it is not a possible event...

I have been to that wall and embraced its death, and God came...

If ever I forget Thee O Jerusalem...

Psalm 137

[1] By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down,
and there we wept when we remembered Zion.

[2] On the willows there we hung up our harps.

[3] For there our captors asked us for words of song,
and our tormentors, for mirth:
"Sing to us from the songs of Zion!"

[4] How could we sing the song of the LORD on an alien land?

[5] If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill,

[6] May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy.

[7] Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom
the day of Jerusalem's fall, those who said:
"Tear it down! Tear it down to its foundation!"

[8] O daughter of Babylon that will be devastated:
Fortunate is the man who repays you what you have done to us;

[9] Fortunate is the man who will seize and dash
your little ones against the rock!

https://youtu.be/1O7NR1zf5pM

If I forget what I know, I will deserve what I receive...


Arsenios

MoreCoffee said:

That thought occurred to me. There's no telling if "the end" is really "the end" because of the possibility of miracle salvation or something similar.

But self blaming based on insufficient faith or insufficient understanding seems a lot like "blind faith".

Facts ought to matter. Maybe they don't. Faith is a powerful motive.

Click to expand...

Facts do matter, but it's always possible that my understanding of the facts is wide of the mark.

I sometimes wonder if much of the modern day narrative is a convenient way to paint a false picture of "the end", in a way that makes it easier to argue that the facts contradict the Christian faith. Over the last few decades it seems the trend has been more and more to simply parrot what "the experts" say without making any attempt to understand it, then ridicule the people who do try to understand it because that's what "the experts" are there for.

tango said:

Facts do matter, but it's always possible that my understanding of the facts is wide of the mark.

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My Dad used to always complain that he did not understand all he knew about matters...

I sometimes wonder if much of the modern day narrative is a convenient way to paint a false picture of "the end", in a way that makes it easier to argue that the facts contradict the Christian faith. Over the last few decades it seems the trend has been more and more to simply parrot what "the experts" say without making any attempt to understand it, then ridicule the people who do try to understand it because that's what "the experts" are there for.

Click to expand...

God's Truth impacts culture, and is not contained by it... Post-modern "thought" is pretty much oxymoronic... It needs experts, and an expert is simply someone whose vision is so constricted that he can only see within his own constrictions... Used to be that a generalist was a free-ranging thinker much esteemed... These days, group-think is on the rise and group-conflict seems inevitable... The good news is that in those arenas, with death at hand in all directions, reliance on God will become the only rational alternative...

Or as Scripture instructs:
"Be not troubling of you the heart..."

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

My Dad used to always complain that he did not understand all he knew about matters...



God's Truth impacts culture, and is not contained by it... Post-modern "thought" is pretty much oxymoronic... It needs experts, and an expert is simply someone whose vision is so constricted that he can only see within his own constrictions... Used to be that a generalist was a free-ranging thinker much esteemed... These days, group-think is on the rise and group-conflict seems inevitable... The good news is that in those arenas, with death at hand in all directions, reliance on God will become the only rational alternative...

Or as Scripture instructs:
"Be not troubling of you the heart..."

Arsenios

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We know these things but to the people who label themselves as "thinkers" (you know, as opposed to the silly religious folks like us who are stuck in our medieval ways) any convenient new "facts" that confirm that they are right to be thinkers, and the silly medieval religious types are more demonstrably wrong, isn't likely to be something they are in any hurry to throw out.

tango said:

We know these things but to the people who label themselves as "thinkers" (you know, as opposed to the silly religious folks like us who are stuck in our medieval ways) any convenient new "facts" that confirm that they are right to be thinkers, and the silly medieval religious types are more demonstrably wrong, isn't likely to be something they are in any hurry to throw out.

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Which is why encounter is so important, where it is not a matter of words and positions and isms, but committing to them the Power of the Love of God in the person of the Christian encountering them... Walking in power... Where it matters not a whit what they do or say in terms of the Power of that Divine Love that is moving into them... But to do that, one must be established in a condition of purity of heart that permits such a walk, and that is what discipleship is all about - eg Purification of the heart in repentance and the overcoming of evil powers and principalities in the world... The people who can walk in this manner are few and far between and for most, hard to find... I know a few, and of a few more... And knew none before I turned 50... At least I recognized none...

Arguing ideas avails little with these folks who see Christians as Medieval throwbacks...


Arsenios