Matthew 16:18 and the RCC's Claim of a Papacy of Itself

Albion

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I am inclined to see apostolic succession as linking saint Peter to his successors but I acknowledge that some argue against that. I do not accept their postion.

Of course you do. That is what you have been taught to believe and you have made the commitment to accept whatever the denomination says. That said, it might be interesting to have you try to make an actual case for the Papacy being valid because of Apostolic Succession. Give it a go.
 

MoreCoffee

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Of course you do. That is what you have been taught to believe and you have made the commitment to accept whatever the denomination says. That said, it might be interesting to have you try to make an actual case for the Papacy being valid because of Apostolic Succession. Give it a go.

There is a sense in which every Christian accepts what he/she has been taught. It is not something to be ashamed about.
 

Albion

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There is a sense in which every Christian accepts what he/she has been taught. It is not something to be ashamed about.
I didn't say anything about being ashamed. To belong to the Catholic Church is to accept uncritically whatever it says on matters that she considers to be dogma (such as this one).
 

MoreCoffee

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Of course you do. That is what you have been taught to believe and you have made the commitment to accept whatever the denomination says. That said, it might be interesting to have you try to make an actual case for the Papacy being valid because of Apostolic Succession. Give it a go.

The Thread called succession does exactly that.
 

Albion

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I've read it.

I guess I don't think that "This is what I would like to think happened...." to be the equivalent of "making a case" for something. ;)
 

MoreCoffee

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I've read it.

I guess I don't think that "This is what I would like to think happened...." to be the equivalent of "making a case" for something. ;)

I have a similar perception about Anglicanism. Founded by a King seeking a second wife (one of six that he had) and his obsequious bishops does not appear to be a good case against Alien Episcopal Supremacy. ;)
 

Albion

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I have a similar perception about Anglicanism. Founded by a King seeking a second wife (one of six that he had) and his obsequious bishops does not appear to be a good case against Alien Episcopal Supremacy. ;)

Don't pout or try to divert. We can discuss Anglicanism on a thread that is about Anglicanism. This one is not.
 

Andrew

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In what sense? Peter--assuming for the sake of the argument that he was a Pope--is a saint. Jorge, the current bishop of Rome, is not. So that might be one diff.
Francis is a successor to saint Peter so he is not greater than saint Peter and is not one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus Christ while saint Peter was.
Both agree that Peter is a Saint, I don't mean to vere off the subject but wouldn't Pope Francis be "called as saints" as a believer in Christ? I mean does a person have to be martyred to be a recognised saint? Was Paul preaching to the dead?
Francis is not an Apostle and was not martyred, what about the Popes before him? Are they considered Saints?
 

Albion

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Both agree that Peter is a Saint, I don't mean to vere off the subject but wouldn't Pope Francis be "called as saints" as a believer in Christ?
Yes, but only in the sense that all believers are sometimes called saints (as the word is used in Scripture). However, it is more common to use the word to refer to some deceased believer who has officially been declared by some church to be now in heaven and--depending on the church in question--deserving of our veneration.

I mean does a person have to be martyred to be a recognised saint?
Certainly not.

Francis is not an Apostle and was not martyred, what about the Popes before him? Are they considered Saints?
Some are, most are not.
 

MoreCoffee

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Don't pout or try to divert. We can discuss Anglicanism on a thread that is about Anglicanism. This one is not.

Okay.
 

Azrael

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There is no ‘pope’ in scripture that I know of. It’s a creation of the movement that became the Catholic Church, which became an arm of the Holy Roman Empire.

They have no claim to The Holy Priesthood, just as Lutherans have none. That’s why they have pastors and not priests. The catholic priests have shown the world which team they are on, right up to the pope. It’s all filth.
 

Albion

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Probably a simple "No, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to a Papacy of any sort"

...would have been sufficient.
 

Josiah

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Probably a simple "No, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to a Papacy of any sort"

...would have been sufficient.


.... some substantiation for such is appropriate. Such has been given.
 

Pedrito

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I think Albion hit the nail on the head in his Post #12:
The interesting thing to me is the fact that it is actually irrelevant whether ”rock” refers to Peter or not. It is often the object of attention when people set out to debunk the idea of the Papacy, but if ”rock” does refer to Peter (which I think it does), there still is no basis for a Papacy to be found in Scripture (and of course there is none in Tradition either, if one thinks that Tradition might be definitive).

1. It was Peter who was the focus expounder of the message of salvation through the exalted Jesus. to the Jews, on the day of Pentecost (in Acts Chapter 2).

2. It was Peter (accompanied by John) who first brought the empowering of the Holy Spirit to the Samaritans in Acts Chapter 8.

3. It was Peter who first brought the message of salvation to the Gentiles (in Acts Chapter 10).

Thus the church (as a worldwide, multi-racial, multicultural organism, as opposed to a (corrupt*) hierarchical organisation headquartered in Rome) was built on Peter, just as Jesus said it would be.


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*The recent revelations across multiple countries regarding the sexual molestation of children by priests, and more importantly the deliberate and in-depth cover ups designed to shield the Roman Catholic Church from exposure to the truth – those alone, in the absence of other examples including historical, and the sexual cover-ups yet to be revealed – they are sufficient to warrant the label of “corrupt”.

Even a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church (Australian George Pell) was charged with historical sexual assault on minors. I expressed at the time (to my wife), that the evidence was so strong that action could not be avoided.

I added that because of the powerful influence of the Roman Catholic Church in all walks of life, I wondered if George Pell would not be convicted, or if a conviction could not be avoided, would be given only a light sentence – a sentence not in keeping with the lives he had destroyed.

George Pell was found guilty of a small number of charges (because legal technicalities and witness loss through death, significantly reduced the number of charges he had to face). I understand his sentencing has yet to take place.

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