Is there a Calvinist who thinks he/she is not Elect?

MoreCoffee said:

That's an interesting comment, every Catholic that I know and with whom I have discussed this matter knows that we all go through purgatory except for the few who are exemplary in their holiness and are recognised as canonical saints. The priests that I know, and I know a good number, say that they expect to go through purgatory if they are faithful until the end of their earthly life.

What is your personal expectation, Albion? will you go to heaven, through purgatory, or to hell?

Click to expand...

Do you not see the utter emptiness of grace in your model, MC?
Your model for salvation is entirely based upon human works of self-righteousness. It's blatant and obvious, yet you seem completely blind to that reality. How is it that you are so blind?

MoreCoffee said:

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], you've written these and similar words dozens of times and must have by now read at least one of the many replies that I've given to you. But for the sake of clarity once again I say
The faithful are saved by grace through faith for the purpose of living in the good works that God foreordained for them to do.
The faithful are not saved by works and do not depend on good works to earn or win or in any other way gain salvation.
God does not owe salvation to anybody for the good works that they have done.
Salvation is a gift not something earned owed or purchased by the good works of any man, Christ alone excepted.

If you read the above and remember it then I will be well pleased. If you do not or if you read and then forget then I will expect more posts like the one quoted above from you.

God bless.

Click to expand...

Do you see the contradiction of your bolded words with your post regarding purgatory? You mouth one thing while showing a hope in your self-righteousness to gain God's favor.

That's an interesting comment, every Catholic that I know and with whom I have discussed this matter knows that we all go through purgatory except for the few who are exemplary in their holiness and are recognised as canonical saints. The priests that I know, and I know a good number, say that they expect to go through purgatory if they are faithful until the end of their earthly life.

Click to expand...

MC, I believe that God has chosen to redeem me. This belief is based upon the gift of faith that God has placed in my being.
Is it possible that my faith is misplaced? Only God knows. For my part, I will continue to persevere on the path laid out for me. God will sustain my faith as He determines.

MennoSota said:

This is false. Josiah, you don't know what you are talking about. Best to abstain.

Click to expand...

It might be more useful to explain what you believe to be true, rather than simply saying "No. Wrong. Be quiet."

Albion said:

I am glad for the reply, but it looks to me that you mischaracterize the meaning of Faith as Calvinists see it. It certainly is not a trust in something abstract or just anything at all, but is Faith in Christ as ones Lord and Savior plus all that goes along with that conviction.

Click to expand...

Unless I'm missing the point here, the question is whether that faith has any value if it is held by someone who is not elect. If you have faith, from whatever source, that Jesus Christ died for your sin and rose again, that Jesus is the only way to God, and that you have repented of your sins and follow the commandments Jesus gave us, but you are not elect, does that faith have any value at all? Or is it like having faith that the rickety bridge will carry you across the ravine only to find out, too late, that you were wrong? Is it like getting all dressed up to go to that exclusive venue only to get to the door and find your ticket was a fake and you spend the rest of your life in prison for forgery, only much worse?

MoreCoffee said:

No, I see no contradiction between salvation by grace and purging the faithful from their flaws prior to receiving them into the presence of God who cannot look upon sins. If you want I can give you scripture references for what I just typed. But I think that you already believe that in heaven the faithful are perfected and have no flaws left because they have been changed by God after they died so that sin no longer dominates in their souls and they can no longer be tempted to perform sins.

Click to expand...

I believe that Jesus atonement for his elect gives the elect a righteous standing by before the throne of God.
I believe that no work of our own will ever, nor could it ever, atone for our sins. Therefore, if the mythical purgatory were to exist, we would never work our way out. We would eternally fall short and never be granted entrance to heaven.
All you have done, with purgatory, is to extend hopeless efforts before being sent to hell for failure to attain the righteousness that only comes through Christ alone.
Recall that Jesus said to the thief on the cross..."this day you shall be with me in paradise." Surely, by your philosophy, the thief would spend eons in purgatory before attaining enough suffer points to gain heaven. But, that is not what Jesus declared.
MC, purgatory is a Roman church myth.

tango said:

It might be more useful to explain what you believe to be true, rather than simply saying "No. Wrong. Be quiet."

Click to expand...

No...it wouldn't be useful.

MennoSota said:

Is it possible that my faith is misplaced? Only God knows.

Click to expand...

Not sure how ANYONE could exist with that fear, that uncertainty... but let's move on.

From the standpoint of TULIP, the issue is not whether you have faith (or its sincerity or genuineness or object or intensity), the issue is singular: Is there anything THERE for it? Is it simply grasping at NOTHING because God has NOTHING for you. After all, Jesus died for only a minority.... there's something THERE for only a minority. You faith could be wonderful..... and entirely irrelevant, grasping at NOTHING AT ALL, embracing nothing but a pure void, the emptiness of God's love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, salvation for YOU (well... at least you are in good company).




.

Josiah said:

Not sure how ANYONE could exist with that fear, that uncertainty... but let's move on.

From the standpoint of TULIP, the issue is not whether you have faith (or its sincerity or genuineness or object or intensity), the issue is singular: Is there anything THERE for it? Is it simply grasping at NOTHING because God has NOTHING for you. After all, Jesus died for only a minority.... there's something THERE for only a minority. You faith could be wonderful..... and entirely irrelevant, grasping at NOTHING AT ALL, embracing nothing but a pure void, the emptiness of God's love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, salvation for YOU (well... at least you are in good company).

Click to expand...

What fear? I trust God for things I have no control over. Either God is faithful or He is not. I believe God is faithful. I leave my fate in God's more than competent hands.
Josiah, you are ignorant regarding Reformed theology. You are shoving your square peg into a round hole and declaring that it fits. I can only shake my head at your ignorant attempt.

MoreCoffee said:

It looks as if you do in fact believe that you are one of God's elect thus confirming what was posited in the first post of this thread.

Click to expand...

Do you believe you are going to hell, MC? Will your human works save you and get you through purgatory as you hope?

MoreCoffee said:

Possibly & no.

Click to expand...

Why no assurance?

MennoSota said:

Why no assurance?

Click to expand...

Possibly for the same reason for your lack of assurance: Jesus may not be the Savior. For the Pelagian/synergist, how can self KNOW if self has done enough (well, at least the RCC now has Purgatory where they can finish the job). For the uber-Calvinist who holds to LIMITED atonement, how can self KNOW if their faith is embracing something that is actually there for them? Catholics (often) have an insufficient Savior.... Tulipian Calvistics (lol) have a (usually) absent Savior.


My position: Jesus (not self) is (actually, fully) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) Savior (of the world, as the Bible teaches). Sola Gratia (universally), Solus Christus (universally).... where faith is in Christ, that faith brings that Christ and all He did to them (faith grasping what is THERE for all). I KNOW I'm loved because God loves everyone (thus me, too)... I KNOW Christ's died for me because He died for all (thus me, too)... I KNOW Jesus is the SAVIOR (not just helper) of me because He is the Savior of everyone (thus me, too). All this is REAL and THERE - for everyone (thus me, too). The faith I have IN THAT CHRIST thus brings to me all that. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. "For God so loved the world that He gave to it His only son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life." Ain't rocket science. Is Good News.

MoreCoffee said:

It looks as if you do in fact believe that you are one of God's elect thus confirming what was posited in the first post of this thread.

Click to expand...

Well, in that original post, you said this:

I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God.

Click to expand...

But now you have settled for having found -- maybe --one person who may or may not be accurately described as a *Calvinist advocate* and might believe himself assured of salvation. That is quite an exercise in backpedaling.

Josiah said:

Possibly for the same reason for your lack of assurance: Jesus may not be the Savior. For the Pelagian/synergist, how can self KNOW if self has done enough (well, at least the RCC now has Purgatory where they can finish the job). For the uber-Calvinist who holds to LIMITED atonement, how can self KNOW if their faith is embracing something that is actually there for them? Catholics (often) have an insufficient Savior.... Tulipian Calvistics (lol) have a (usually) absent Savior.

My position: Jesus (not self) is (actually, fully) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) Savior (of the world, as the Bible teaches). Sola Gratia (universally), Solus Christus (universally).... where faith is in Christ, that faith brings that Christ and all He did to them (faith grasping what is THERE for all). I KNOW I'm loved because God loves everyone (thus me, too)... I KNOW Christ's died for me because He died for all (thus me, too)... I KNOW Jesus is the SAVIOR (not just helper) of me because He is the Savior of everyone (thus me, too).

Ain't rocket science. Is Good News.

Click to expand...

You sound like a pelagian universalist.
"People are born good and God loves them all so all go to heaven."
Clearly you reject the solas.

MennoSota said:

Clearly you reject the solas.

Click to expand...

No... I accept it. But if TULIP is right, it's irrelevant....

And faith (no matter how "genuine" or "sincere" or all the other adjectives Calvinists demand) trusts in something non-existent for them, then it's moot. You shared the insecurity you have, and that's logical... since you have no way to know if God loves YOU (He doesn't most people, TULIP insists - so likely not you) and since you have no way to know if Jesus died for YOU (He didn't for most people, TULIP insists - so likely not you)... no Sola Gratia, no Solus Christus.... then you have no way to know if your faith (no matter WHAT it says or feels or is) is actually grasping anything ... you may be grabbing onto pure emptiness (that's what is there for most people - NOTHING). Your faith may be genuine, real, sincere, strong.... with NOTHING to embrace.

My position: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Jesus (not self) is (actually, fully) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) Savior (of the world, as the Bible teaches). Sola Gratia (universally), Solus Christus (universally).... THERE'S SOMETHING THERE: His grace, His mercy, His forgiveness. I don't have to guess if I'm one of the FEW for whom this is because it's there for all. Where faith is in Christ, that faith brings that Christ and all He did to to us (faith grasping what is THERE for all). I KNOW I'm loved because God loves everyone (thus me, too)... I KNOW Christ's died for me because He died for all (thus me, too)... I KNOW Jesus is the SAVIOR (not just helper) of me because He is the Savior of everyone (thus me, too).




.