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    1. #1
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Is there a Calvinist who thinks he/she is not Elect?

      Calvinist folk talk a lot about TULIP matters, sometimes under the name "the doctrines of grace" and in TULIP is the topic of election. I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God. Why is that?
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    2. #2
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      It was predestined to be that way?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. Likes atpollard liked this post
    4. #3
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      On the contrary, most of the Calvinists whom I know personally are quite frank to say that they do not know.

      However, it is reasonable--and Scriptural--to have the hunch that a person who lives a Godly life is more than likely among the Elect, while those who hate righteousness probably are not.

      So for the upright, churchgoing Calvinist to hope that he is among the Elect is not surprising. Meanwhile, I can honestly say that I have never met a Catholic who thought that he would be in Purgatory, not Heaven, upon departing this life. This despite the fact that such is exactly what the church they belong to teaches about the destiny of those who will at some time in the future reach Heaven.

    5. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      On the contrary, most of the Calvinists whom I know personally are quite frank to say that they do not know. ...
      Are you elect? A Calvinist?
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    6. #5
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Calvinist folk talk a lot about TULIP matters, sometimes under the name "the doctrines of grace" and in TULIP is the topic of election. I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God. Why is that?
      Because aside from the irrisistable draw of God, quickening a dead heart, all of fallen mankind is both unwilling to and incapable of seeking the true God on His terms (repentance, confession, faith in the cross and the lordship of Jesus). Natural man wants to follow Allah and the Jehovahís Witnesses and work really hard to prove to God that we have earned our salvation through (as a direct result of the merits of) our good works ... or natural man refuses to follow God at all.

      So the DESIRE to please God and do things Godís way rather than our way can only come from God ... making us (Calvinists) part of the Church Universal, the Body of Christ in all times and all places, and therefore chosen, beloved and elect.

      What makes so many Catholics think they are among the saved? (I assumed that it was the same thing, the draw of God and the evidence of change wrought by the Holy Spirit).

    7. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      What makes so many Catholics think they are among the saved? (I assumed that it was the same thing, the draw of God and the evidence of change wrought by the Holy Spirit).
      Theologically speaking Catholic teaching is that the faithful are on the road that leads to salvation - the straight and narrow path - rather than "saved" in the sense in which many Protestants claim to be "saved".
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    8. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      On the contrary, most of the Calvinists whom I know personally are quite frank to say that they do not know.

      However, it is reasonable--and Scriptural--to have the hunch that a person who lives a Godly life is more than likely among the Elect, while those who hate righteousness probably are not.
      You can't really conclude that. If you believe in the concept of the elect then the thief who repented on the cross was elect despite the fact that no part of his life until his dying moments looked even remotely righteous. It would seem to me that "the elect", if it exists as an objectively defined group in this manner, is just as likely to include the stillborn baby, the child who died of leukemia aged 3 and the adult who repented on their deathbed as it is to include the priest and the person who gave their life to Jesus aged 7 and lived a Christian life until they died in their 90s.

      So for the upright, churchgoing Calvinist to hope that he is among the Elect is not surprising. Meanwhile, I can honestly say that I have never met a Catholic who thought that he would be in Purgatory, not Heaven, upon departing this life. This despite the fact that such is exactly what the church they belong to teaches about the destiny of those who will at some time in the future reach Heaven.
      Interesting counter-observation
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    9. #8
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Because aside from the irrisistable draw of God, quickening a dead heart, all of fallen mankind is both unwilling to and incapable of seeking the true God on His terms (repentance, confession, faith in the cross and the lordship of Jesus). Natural man wants to follow Allah and the Jehovahís Witnesses and work really hard to prove to God that we have earned our salvation through (as a direct result of the merits of) our good works ... or natural man refuses to follow God at all.

      So the DESIRE to please God and do things Godís way rather than our way can only come from God ... making us (Calvinists) part of the Church Universal, the Body of Christ in all times and all places, and therefore chosen, beloved and elect.

      What makes so many Catholics think they are among the saved? (I assumed that it was the same thing, the draw of God and the evidence of change wrought by the Holy Spirit).
      Right.
      I recognize the work of God on my behalf and the faith, given that I might persevere.
      While God is not obligated to save, God has promised that He will never leave nor forsake His chosen ones. God will enable the elect to persevere.
      God knows His elect. I am content in knowing that God will justly do what He wills with me. If I am condemned by my sins...that is just. If I am redeemed by Jesus atonement, justice has been met by God the Son on my behalf. Either way, God is righteous, good and just.

    10. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      You can't really conclude that. If you believe in the concept of the elect then the thief who repented on the cross was elect despite the fact that no part of his life until his dying moments looked even remotely righteous. It would seem to me that "the elect", if it exists as an objectively defined group in this manner, is just as likely to include the stillborn baby, the child who died of leukemia aged 3 and the adult who repented on their deathbed as it is to include the priest and the person who gave their life to Jesus aged 7 and lived a Christian life until they died in their 90s.
      Tango, I was prepared to read a careful rebuttal to what I had written...but what you have said here is not that.

      First, I clearly wrote that what an onlooker might have is a "hunch," not something proven, not a solid conclusion. I stand behind that. Yes, if a person lives a virtuous life, is a believing Christian, etc. there is a reason to guess that he is likely to be among the Elect...but it is not guaranteed.

      Whether any onlooker suspects that the subject is among the Elect--or, on the other hand, is not--it is a guess. But it is not as though it is a guess made in the dark without any evidence and minus all logic.

      Second, you have mentioned a few exceptions. These are clearly not the norm--children who die in the first several years, deathbed conversions, and so on. What you have done there is attempt to show that NOT EVERY person can be sized up by an onlooker and classified as Elect or Reprobate. But no one is attempting to do that--classify every person who comes into the world. Nor was that the idea I was responding to in my post.

      The issue concerned whether a believer in Election might have an opinion about whether he (or someone else he observes), is likely to be among the Elect.







      .
      Last edited by Albion; 12-06-2018 at 09:55 AM.

    11. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Tango, I was prepared to read a careful rebuttal to what I had written...but what you have said here is not that.

      First, I clearly wrote that what an onlooker might have is a "hunch," not something proven, not a solid conclusion. I stand behind that. Yes, if a person lives a virtuous life, is a believing Christian, etc. there is a reason to guess that he is likely to be among the Elect...but it is not guaranteed.

      Whether any onlooker suspects that the subject is among the Elect--or, on the other hand, is not--it is a guess. But it is not as though it is a guess made in the dark without any evidence and minus all logic.

      Second, you have mentioned a few exceptions. These are clearly not the norm--children who die in the first several years, deathbed conversions, and so on. What you have done there is attempt to show that NOT EVERY person can be sized up by an onlooker and classified as Elect or Reprobate. But no one is attempting to do that--classify every person who comes into the world. Nor was that the idea I was responding to in my post.

      The issue concerned whether a believer in Election might have an opinion about whether he (or someone else he observes), is likely to be among the Elect.
      My point wasn't so much whether or not an observer might have an opinion (you know what they say about opinions, right?) but whether an opinion is likely to be a useful opinion. During the time I was involved in the occult I despised just about anything that even looked like an organised religion with most of my most pointed venom reserved for Christianity. You'd certainly be forgiven for assuming I was anything but one of the elect. And, who knows, maybe I'm still in for a nasty surprise come Judgment Day, if the concept of a predestined group called "the elect" proves to be the truth.

      Extreme outliers aren't necessarily useful as a driver of good concepts but are useful to demonstrate if a concept is flawed. If you look at the average human being you don't see someone who lives an obviously unrighteous life. Since we seldom see the darker side, if it exists, of the majority of people we encounter there's really no way to form a useful opinion. That dark side might be anything from the priest who is a pedophile, the church elder who hits his wife or something as simple as the teenage boy who faithfully attends church but just because he kinda likes the girl in the choir.

      Hence my point, that although we might form an opinion we'd probably be well advised not to put any credence in it at all because we can't see the hearts of those about whom we are forming those opinions. The thief on the cross and the stillborn baby are just examples to demonstrate that.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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