CRISIS IN ORTHODOXY - UKRANIAN AUTOCEPHALOY

MennoSota

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How ironic.... the biggest objectors to the separation of church and state are American Baptists.... the very group that so stressed and are known for their total rejection of the very thing some American baptist now promote.
Ironically, they want the government out of their business while they control the government. It's a paradox.
 

Arsenios

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The Christian Faith began in the Roman Empire that resulted from the conquests of Alexander the Great, taught by Aristotle himself, fighting on the back of his great war-horse, Bucephalos... These conquests produced the Greek Old Testment translated by Jewish Scribes and used extensively in the Jewish Diaspora at the time of Christ...

It did not birth into a friendly environment, but a hostile one... I likd to think of it as a great "Undercover Operation", beginning perhaps in the typos of the Jewish spies of the OT who were helped by the harlot... Christ Himself had to be concealed in Egypt to be kept alive, and He was always silencing the mouths of demons who wanted to identify Him to people... He was concerned about how He was being perceived, asking His disciples and Peter...

And it took over the world in 300 years under great persecutions by many rulers who killed hundreds of thousands of Christians who did not fight back... It was Constantine who brought Christianity legitimacy in the Roman Empire in the 4th century, and moved the head of the Roman Empire from Roma, Italia, to Constantinopled, where it ruled as a Christian Empire for a thousand years, and as the center of the Orthodox Christian Faith long after that...

In the US of A we are going to find out how well this Faith does outside persecutions... At least for now... Orthodoxy impacts cultures, transforming them across time... The Christianity of the West is becoming more and more impacted by the secular culture which is spawning all around it... Christian Cultures tend to have Christian Governments, and these tend to be autocratic from the beginnings... The wonderfully free government of the US is still an experiment after some 250 years, and is under attack from within by oppressive forces... Russia is a Christian Country re-emerging from horrific persecutions of Christians under Stalin [some 50 million killed variously]... It does not have a US Constitutionally limited government... It is rebuilding as a government the Churches destroyed by the government, and repopulating its monasteries and seeking to defend Christianity in its environments in nearby countries... It supports Assad because Assad in Syria protects Christian communities... Islamic countries need oppressive governments...


Arsenios
 

Albion

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So why should the Georgians, the Rumanians, the Bulgarians, et al have their own Orthodox churches but the Ukranians be under the thumb of another nation's church--and a nation that is trying militarily to annex their country at that?! As I was saying before, that seems contrary to the historic nature of Orthodoxy.
 

MoreCoffee

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So why should the Georgians, the Rumanians [Romanians], the Bulgarians, et al have their own Orthodox churches but the Ukranians [Ukrainians] be under the thumb of another nation's church--and a nation that is trying militarily to annex their country at that?! As I was saying before, that seems contrary to the historic nature of Orthodoxy.

Politically there's no reason for Ukrainians to be under Russia's thumb. Religiously speaking politics ought to be irrelevant. Catholics live in Russia and Ukraine as well as many other lands without needing to feel hostility towards the Pope or their own bishops. But Catholic ecclesiology is not the same as Orthodox on a number of matters and the way "self government" works among the Orthodox is fairly complicated. Historically the Moscow Patriarch had jurisdiction over Ukraine because when Russia was under the Tsars Ukraine was part of "Russia" and the same was true under the USSR. Now it is different and Ukraine is a separate nation with its own language so maybe it is time that it was self governing under its own bishops and if need be its own patriarch.
 

MennoSota

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Politically there's no reason for Ukrainians to be under Russia's thumb. Religiously speaking politics ought to be irrelevant. Catholics live in Russia and Ukraine as well as many other lands without needing to feel hostility towards the Pope or their own bishops. But Catholic ecclesiology is not the same as Orthodox on a number of matters and the way "self government" works among the Orthodox is fairly complicated. Historically the Moscow Patriarch had jurisdiction over Ukraine because when Russia was under the Tsars Ukraine was part of "Russia" and the same was true under the USSR. Now it is different and Ukraine is a separate nation with its own language so maybe it is time that it was self governing under its own bishops and if need be its own patriarch.
Your denomination complicates what is quite simple.
God chooses those who make up his body... the church.
Your denomination seems ignorant of this fact
 

Albion

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Politically there's no reason for Ukrainians to be under Russia's thumb. Religiously speaking politics ought to be irrelevant. Catholics live in Russia and Ukraine as well as many other lands without needing to feel hostility towards the Pope or their own bishops. But Catholic ecclesiology is not the same as Orthodox on a number of matters and the way "self government" works among the Orthodox is fairly complicated. Historically the Moscow Patriarch had jurisdiction over Ukraine because when Russia was under the Tsars Ukraine was part of "Russia" and the same was true under the USSR. Now it is different and Ukraine is a separate nation with its own language so maybe it is time that it was self governing under its own bishops and if need be its own patriarch.
and that is the point. But it is not just that the Soviet Union is gone. Georgia was part of the Soviet Union with its own history, etc. and yet had its own church.
 

Arsenios

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and that is the point. But it is not just that the Soviet Union is gone. Georgia was part of the Soviet Union with its own history, etc. and yet had its own church.

And it still does - One of the most ancient of the Christian Churches on earth, with a distinctive poly-phonic liturgical harmony that is very difficult to learn and hauntingly peaceful and beautiful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xixViJaQjI

A rural country, the village families welcome strangers as Christ Himself - Our parish has a member who went there to teach English, visited the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem for Pascha, met a young Russian woman there, and are now here with teo beautiful children (so far)... And two other men just got back from a pilgrimage to Georgia to Her holy sites - The Georgians were taken aback to learn that they are American Orthodox Christians... Countries in that region are accustomed to seeing only American Protestant Pilgrims acting as tourists...


Arsenios
 

Albion

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And it still does - One of the most ancient of the Christian Churches on earth, with a distinctive poly-phonic liturgical harmony that is very difficult to learn and hauntingly peaceful and beautiful...
Yes, I know that she does (still have her national church). My point was that there seems no reason to deny to the Ukrainians what the Georgians have been allowed.
 

Arsenios

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Yes, I know that she does (still have her national church). My point was that there seems no reason to deny to the Ukrainians what the Georgians have been allowed.

When it is being used as a political ploy outside the Canons of the Church there is every reason...

Russian Orthodox Christians, who comprise by far the largest group of Christians in the region, are being persecuted...

That is why the region is such a powder keg...

They are not willing to secularize according to the European Union mandates...

The group he is giving auto-cephaly to is schismatic...

He is assuming Papal-esque powers over the Church and using them for globalist EU political aims...

A Bishop cannot start Churches outside his geographical base in another Bishop's country of responsibility...

That is an invitation to political secularization of the Church by outside political powers...


Arsenios
 
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Albion

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When it is being used as a political ploy outside the Canons of the Church there is every reason...

Russian Orthodox Christians, who comprise by far the largest group of Christians in the region, are being persecuted...
So that is the political ploy (or excuse) for objecting in this particular case?
 

Arsenios

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So that is the political ploy (or excuse) for objecting in this particular case?

That is the reason Putin is taking a role there - They have no means of self-defense that is meaningful without him...

Hunting rifles in the woods won't cut it when your family is in the house...

And the secular government is actively anti-Christian, so dividing Christians is to their benefit...

And now the complicity of the EP...

Sad times...


Arsenios
 

Albion

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Does being an Orthodox Christian require one to be an apologist for Russian militarism and imperialism at all times??








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MennoSota

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Russian Orthodox Christians, who comprise by far the largest group of Christians in the region, are being persecuted...
LOL, what a joke.
Having aquaintances in Russia, the truth is that the Russian Orthodox view themselves as the "supreme" race that God has chosen to rule the world. Putin views Russia the same way. They are in bed together as a power play for control. Gog and Magog vying for dominance while displaying anti-Semitism and systematically destroying all other denominations within Russia.
Russian Orthodox being persecuted? Just another ruse of a power hungry regime in Moscow.
 

Arsenios

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Does being an Orthodox Christian require one to be an apologist for Russian militarism and imperialism at all times??

No...

And putin is reputed to be 'old school' - eg A counterpuncher of wrongs that over-punches...

But his faith is genuine, I am satisfied...

He once said of the US - "I am NOT your friend - I am the President of Russia..."


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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No...

And putin is reputed to be 'old school' - eg A counterpuncher of wrongs that over-punches...

But his faith is genuine, I am satisfied...

He once said of the US - "I am NOT your friend - I am the President of Russia..."


Arsenios
Yeah... it's as genuine as Stalin's and Trump's faith...[emoji849]
 
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