CRISIS IN ORTHODOXY - UKRANIAN AUTOCEPHALOY

Arsenios

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This is a major blow to the Orthodox Faith, where the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople has granted autocephaly to a schizmatic group in the Ukraine and stepped into political activism... This is the Russian Church's Patriarch's response:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGN3pz0oKuo

The Church is now in deep prayer...

The Ukraine government is already taking over Russian Monasteries - eg the Kiev Caves...

It could get very ugly...

An attack on the Russian Church's historical presence in the Ukraine...

Seeing Patriarch Kyrill's reply is an example of the best of the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Faith...

So I share it here...

This thread is not open for debate or flaming...

Thank-you...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Auto big head? [emoji41]
 

Cassia

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Autocephaly (/ˌɔːtəˈsɛfəli/; from Greek: αὐτοκεφαλία, meaning "property of being self-headed” would biblically be the autonominaous (sp?) also? Such as every church having their own locality?
 

Arsenios

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Autocephaly (/ˌɔːtəˈsɛfəli/; from Greek: αὐτοκεφαλία, meaning "property of being self-headed” would biblically be the autonominaous (sp?) also? Such as every church having their own locality?

Yes - Self-headed... When the Russian Church in the Ukraine is under the Moscow Patriarchate... The pro-West government has been seeking a way to break the Russian hold over the Faith in the Ukraine, and the Ecumenical Patriarch has joined with the west to break it up by Ekklesiastical fiat...

It is a power grab for political purposes...

Here he speaks again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaSPlFoY5-k


Arsenios
 

Cassia

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Very hard to define Protestants that are joined to Orthodox from the autonomous norms probably more noticeable on the old continent. Pentecostal is still seen as more the norm than not in America.
 

Arsenios

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Very hard to define Protestants that are joined to Orthodox from the autonomous norms probably more noticeable on the old continent. Pentecostal is still seen as more the norm than not in America.

Yes - In the US, most Churches are auto-cephalous under each one's local pastor and council...

Communion and its withdrawal in the EOC is a very big deal...

It is not yet a schism, but is more than a minor spat...


Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes - In the us, most Churches are auto-cephalous under each one's local pastor and council...

Communion and its withdrawal in the EOC is a very big deal...

It is not yet a schism, but is more than a minor spat...


Arsenios

The Communist Party in China tries to separate Catholics in China from the Holy See. So far it has only been marginally successful but it is a persistent politics-motivated problem. I imagine that the tensions between Russia and Ukraine are producing similar politics-motivated problems but in Orthodoxy (where autocephalousy is linguistic/national in a number of cases) it is not unprecedented.
 

Albion

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Isnt Orthodoxy supposed to champion the idea of each significant nationality having its own church while being united in the faith with all other such national jurisdictions? Rather than viewing this development as alarming, why isn't it seen as long overdue?
 

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Isnt Orthodoxy supposed to champion the idea of each significant nationality having its own church while being united in the faith with all other such national jurisdictions?

Indeed so, and the Ukraine is outside the jurisdiction of Constantinople... And he apparently has the support of the US State Department...

The Ukraine is the heart of the beginnings of the Russian Church - And it is under the Homophoron of the Moscow Patriarchate... The Ecumenical Patriarch, by granting Autocephaly to schismatic Churches there, is stepping outside his geographical aegis of responsibility... And in so doing, is creating a schism in the Church much akin to that of the schism between the Latins and the Eastern Christians a thousand years ago... He is seeking to assert Papal powers into his office which does not have them, and in so doing is transgressing the Church of Russia in the Ukraine...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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The Communist Party in China tries to separate Catholics in China from the Holy See. So far it has only been marginally successful but it is a persistent politics-motivated problem. I imagine that the tensions between Russia and Ukraine are producing similar politics-motivated problems but in Orthodoxy (where autocephalousy is linguistic/national in a number of cases) it is not unprecedented.

Secular governments attack Christian Churches...


Arsenios
 

Cassia

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Secular governments attack Christian Churches...


Arsenios
Mostly house churches in China are attacked. How would they disconnect from the Holy See? Which is what? Administrative? I think they destroy any concordances and have stricter licence on what is taught.
 

Josiah

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Separation of church and state.
 

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MennoSota

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Secular governments attack Christian Churches...


Arsenios
The Orthodox Church has been in bed with the Russian government for over 1000 years. It often plays the Machiavellian role of keeping the peasants in line. There is little to nothing spiritual or biblical about its role in the body of Christ.
Christ is the head of His church. There may be some who attend EO church services that are a part of Christ, but the denomination known as "Orthodoxy" is not and has never been the body of Christ. It is an arrogant, political, power grab when any denomination (ie Roman Catholic, Swedish Lutheran, Southern Baptist, etc.) claims to be the only means by which Christ establishes his body, the Church. The arrogance of EO members and Roman members here at CH is obvious when they claim exclusiveness as a church.
 

Josiah

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The Orthodox Church has been in bed with the Russian government for over 1000 years. It often plays the Machiavellian role of keeping the peasants in line. There is little to nothing spiritual or biblical about its role in the body of Christ.
Christ is the head of His church. There may be some who attend EO church services that are a part of Christ, but the denomination known as "Orthodoxy" is not and has never been the body of Christ. It is an arrogant, political, power grab when any denomination (ie Roman Catholic, Swedish Lutheran, Southern Baptist, etc.) claims to be the only means by which Christ establishes his body, the Church. The arrogance of EO members and Roman members here at CH is obvious when they claim exclusiveness as a church.


SADLY, the secular government and denominations has been "in bed" (as you put it) since a secular government created the first denomination in the 4th Century... it was the ROMAN Church, for the ROMAN Empire, created by the ROMAN Empire in its image. It's how the bishop in Rome got his "power" because he had the "ear" of the Emperior (living just down the street). People often forget the the Ecumenical Councils were called and presided over by Roman secular governors. The "in bed" was how it became in the 4th Century and it's largely been that way ever since.

The EAST has been far more comfortable with this arrangement... it's been a point of conflict in the West since the "Fall" of Rome, a constant power struggle between two OBSESSED with power - the secular governments and the RCC (and later, Protestant denominations). We see this in Latin America too - a real WAR. In Europe and Latin America, what has largely ended this has NOT been some agreement but simply a fall of the church, fewer and fewer people or governments giving a rip for the church. This is true for the RCC too as we see VERY Catholic countries embracing abortion on demand, same-gender marriage, etc, etc. In the East, the government tended to out-power the church in a way the church lived with, but most of Orthodoxy lived under Communism for a long time and that denomination simply became irrelevant. Throughout the world, there is no real conflict anymore simply because the world has become very secular.

Luther's teaching of "The Two Kingdoms of God" developed into the Protestant idea (and current universal reality) of "Separation of Church and State" (except ironically in American Fundamentalism and some Evangelicalism). But Luther's idea was not one of conflict but complement... and Luther himself was comfortable "state churches" end even secular appointments (or at least confirmations) of appointments of clergy and bishops - things American Lutherans would never stand for but common in European Lutheranism until quite recently.


IMO, the "in bed" arrangement has rarely been to the benefit of Christianity.... secular rulers know how to use/abuse POWER better than denominations, and got the better of the deal. Secular rulers have been able to abuse religion for their own (often demonic) objectives, getting Christians even to kill for the benefit of the secular state. The government keen on using some Scriptures to essentially make the church into its slave. It was because of this abuse that some (especially American baptists) proposed a separation. It was not immediate. There were still counties in the USA that had state religion and supported churches with tax money, where clergy were actually town employees. To this day, there are "Town Halls" all over New England that once were also the government's approved and supported church. But Christianity pulled away as problems persisted,,,, I think the last OFFICIAL "tie" in the USA ended in the 1840's. IMO, it's good. The church rarely got the better end of the power deal, the "in bed" arrangement. You'd THINK all those years of Communism would convence the EOC of this, too. But it didn't; this "in bed" arrangement is DEEP in the history and identity of the EOC's.


I might add, my own denomination (The LCMS) was born out of this very issue: The State owned and operated "German Evangelical Church" became very liberal, by demand of the secular government. Parishes could no longer use conservative, Lutheran educational materials or call conservative pastors. Wanting to cut the ties with the German State, many joined together and migrated to the USA, settling in Perry County, MO. HERE they were free of the secular government, no longer "in bed". It's also why the LCMS became so very involved in education, at one time having the second largest school system in the USA. Nearly all parishes had their own school - accepting no government money or control, where the parish and parent could determine what was taught (separation of church and state) - still paying all their taxes, saying nothing against government schools, just being separate, not "in bed" as you put it. It's also why my own pastor has stated that he is opposed to "prayer in secular school" and teaching religion there.... he doesn't want Nancy Polosi determining the prayers and the teachings.




.
 
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MennoSota

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SADLY, the secular government and denominations has been "in bed" (as you put it) since a secular government created the first denomination in the 4th Century... it was the ROMAN Church, for the ROMAN Empire, created by the ROMAN Empire in its image. It's how the bishop in Rome got his "power" because he had the "ear" of the Emperior (living just down the street). People often forget the the Ecumenical Councils were called and presided over by Roman secular governors. The "in bed" was how it became in the 4th Century and it's largely been that way ever since.

The EAST has been far more comfortable with this arrangement... it's been a point of conflict in the West since the "Fall" of Rome, a constant power struggle between two OBSESSED with power - the secular governments and the RCC (and later, Protestant denominations). We see this in Latin America too - a real WAR. In Europe and Latin America, what has largely ended this has NOT been some agreement but simply a fall of the church, fewer and fewer people or governments giving a rip for the church. This is true for the RCC too as we see VERY Catholic countries embracing abortion on demand, same-gender marriage, etc, etc. In the East, the government tended to out-power the church in a way the church lived with, but most of Orthodoxy lived under Communism for a long time and that denomination simply became irrelevant. Throughout the world, there is no real conflict anymore simply because the world has become very secular.

Luther's teaching of "The Two Kingdoms of God" developed into the Protestant idea (and current universal reality) of "Separation of Church and State" (except ironically in American Fundamentalism and some Evangelicalism). But Luther's idea was not one of conflict but complement... and Luther himself was comfortable "state churches" end even secular appointments (or at least confirmations) of appointments of clergy and bishops - things American Lutherans would never stand for but common in European Lutheranism until quite recently.


IMO, the "in bed" arrangement has rarely been to the benefit of Christianity.... secular rulers know how to use/abuse POWER better than denominations, and got the better of the deal. Secular rulers have been able to abuse religion for their own (often demonic) objectives, getting Christians even to kill for the benefit of the secular state. The government keen on using some Scriptures to essentially make the church into its slave. It was because of this abuse that some (especially American baptists) proposed a separation. It was not immediate. There were still counties in the USA that had state religion and supported churches with tax money, where clergy were actually town employees. To this day, there are "Town Halls" all over New England that once were also the government's approved and supported church. But Christianity pulled away as problems persisted,,,, I think the last OFFICIAL "tie" in the USA ended in the 1840's. IMO, it's good. The church rarely got the better end of the power deal, the "in bed" arrangement. You'd THINK all those years of Communism would convence the EOC of this, too. But it didn't; this "in bed" arrangement is DEEP in the history and identity of the EOC's.




.
I agree. Sadly, however, church leaders (ie Franklin Graham) still keep trying to jump in bed.
 

Josiah

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I agree. Sadly, however, church leaders (ie Franklin Graham) still keep trying to jump in bed.


How ironic.... the biggest objectors to the separation of church and state are American Baptists.... the very group that so stressed and are known for their total rejection of the very thing some American baptist now promote.
 
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